Yesterday in Church . . .

[_LDSToronto]

Now for a break from whyme's threadjack.

Consig, a couple of years ago when I pretty much had it with church and started plotting my exit, having a guy like you in my ward would have made that decision incredibly hard. Like you I always found the answers to gospel questions went far beyond the banality that is usually brought up on Sundays and I would always speak up, offering counterpoints supported by scripture. Unfortunately, I think I was seen more as a guy who didn't tow the party line. When my family and I finally left, there was no effort to retain, no visits, no 'heart attacks'...nothing. I think there might have just been relief that people didn't have to listen to me.

If I'd had a rare friend like Consig, who *truly* felt that everyone was welcome (and sure, many members *say* this, but most don't practice it), perhaps I'd still be at church, participating.

H.

[_Philidel]

Rising poverty and entrenched poverty are universal and tragic problems. I don’t by any means dismiss them. Nor do I wish to be disrepectful of you, why me.

There are certainly European states with very troubled economies. I heard on Sunday of the suicide of an acquaintance in one of those countries. Money issues were among the problems he faced, though it’s not clear that these were due specifically to general economic issues in that country rather than choices that led him to burn too many bridges. But I am aware of the problems in Europe, specifically the Eurozone, and I’m concerned for the future. Any reasonable person would be.

However, it is annoying to see see it is accepted as a given that ‘Europe’ is on the brink of disaster, particularly when in Europe, there are adults in the room having the hard conversations about what steps should be taken to correct the situation. There’s disagreement over the direction, and there’s resistence, but talks take place. It seems in America that one party has been holding out on even having rational conversation in hopes that the other party will fail, damn the consequences in America and abroad.

And it seems that commentators of a particular stripe take pride in pointing to the problems of Europe, as if that would somehow reassert the place of American exceptionalism in the conversation. The inevitable fall of Europe rests right beside ‘European-style socialism’ as a widely disseminated meme. I have the impression, however, that large numbers of those who accept of these memes haven’t a clear picture of what life is actually like in Europe.

I’m fortunate enough to have a middle-class existence and move mainly in middle-class circles, so, yes, I am shielded from the poverty that does exist here. I can only assert that the middle class in the European state in which I live have a comfortable existence. Further, I doubt that more Europeans have lost ‘jobs, wealth, family, home, etc.’ than have in America. What are poverty rates there? Are they rising? What happens to those who lose jobs and, with jobs, health insurance?

I don’t have the figures to compare – and how could one, given the social and geopolitical differences? You’re right in this regard though: I don’t want to have this conversation. I don’t have the time or the will or the expertise for it. (And I acknowledge my place in the threadjack.)

I want only to protest that there is a quality of short-sightedness in the American discussion of Europe’s problems that, seen from this side, seems to be more about American nationalism and shoring up a particular ideology than is necessarity grounded in reality.

[_Chap]

I want only to protest that there is a quality of short-sightedness in the American discussion of Europe’s problems that, seen from this side, seems to be more about American nationalism and shoring up a particular ideology than is necessarity grounded in reality.

There also seems to be a fair bit of plain and simple pig-ignorance in some quarters. I remember one poster confidently asserting that the standard of living in Mississippi was higher than that in Sweden.

It's not that such people should get out more. They just haven't been out at all.

[_why me]

Now for a break from whyme's threadjack.

H.

What hijack? . .

Mormons have many views and opinions about prosperity and poverty. It is not a one size fits all.

[_why me]

I’m fortunate enough to have a middle-class existence and move mainly in middle-class circles, so, yes, I am shielded from the poverty that does exist here. I can only assert that the middle class in the European state in which I live have a comfortable existence. Further, I doubt that more Europeans have lost ‘jobs, wealth, family, home, etc.’ than have in America. What are poverty rates there? Are they rising? What happens to those who lose jobs and, with jobs, health insurance?

I don’t have the figures to compare – and how could one, given the social and geopolitical differences? You’re right in this regard though: I don’t want to have this conversation. I don’t have the time or the will or the expertise for it. (And I acknowledge my place in the threadjack.)

Poverty is increasing in america since 1 in 5 now depend on food stamps. And I am sure that many Mormons are also feeling the pinch. Righteousness has never been a safeguard against hard times. And Mormons also know this.

[_Drifting]

Poverty is increasing in america since 1 in 5 now depend on food stamps. And I am sure that many Mormons are also feeling the pinch. Righteousness has never been a safeguard against hard times. And Mormons also know this.

But how can that be?
America is the promised land, kept from all other nations, a land of plenty...
Are you saying America is in no fit state to host the New Jerusalem, Zion and so members should move to...Sweden?

[_Cicero]

Now for a break from whyme's threadjack.

Consig, a couple of years ago when I pretty much had it with church and started plotting my exit, having a guy like you in my ward would have made that decision incredibly hard. Like you I always found the answers to gospel questions went far beyond the banality that is usually brought up on Sundays and I would always speak up, offering counterpoints supported by scripture. Unfortunately, I think I was seen more as a guy who didn't tow the party line. When my family and I finally left, there was no effort to retain, no visits, no 'heart attacks'...nothing. I think there might have just been relief that people didn't have to listen to me.

If I'd had a rare friend like Consig, who *truly* felt that everyone was welcome (and sure, many members *say* this, but most don't practice it), perhaps I'd still be at church, participating.

H.

This sounds a lot like where I am right now (except that I rarely say anything in Church these days). I thrived in wards on the East coast and Europe, but I am not doing well at all since my recent move to the lovely Pacific Northwest. There are definitely no Consigs in my current ward.

[_just me]

Poverty is increasing in america since 1 in 5 now depend on food stamps. And I am sure that many Mormons are also feeling the pinch. Righteousness has never been a safeguard against hard times. And Mormons also know this.

But how can that be?
America is the promised land, kept from all other nations, a land of plenty...
Are you saying America is in no fit state to host the New Jerusalem, Zion and so members should move to...Sweden?

Wait. I thought capitalism and democracy were the answer to poverty! I am so confused!

[_Drifting]

Wait. I thought capitalism and democracy were the answer to poverty! I am so confused!

Well, prosperity = righteousness. We learned that last Sunday.
So if you're poor then you must be unrighteous.

Keith McMullin had it right all along....
(see sig line)

[_just me]

Wait. I thought capitalism and democracy were the answer to poverty! I am so confused!

Well, prosperity = righteousness. We learned that last Sunday.
So if you're poor then you must be unrighteous.

Keith McMullin had it right all along....
(see sig line)

Well, I didn't learn that last Sunday because I am inactive! Bwahahahaha!