For Pahoran: Did Smith have sex with Helen Mar Kimball?

[_Chap]

Well, I am going to stop reading this thread for a while.

What is the betting that when I get back I shall see a reasoned case, with evidence, for believing that only a latent pedophile would think it likely that Joseph Smith had sex with Helen Mar Kimball, a girl he was married to?

For that was what Pahoran claimed.

[_Madison54]

And why exactly is Joseph Smith held to a higher standard than the other early prophets and church brothers who practiced polygamy and had sex with their polygamous wives? Did Joseph practice a different type of polygamy than they did?

My Great-Great-Grandfather was an early church leader who lived polygamy. His last wife was only 15 years old when he married her and had sex with her. That's ok and readily accepted? But not ok for Joseph? I don't understand the double standard.

[_Stormy Waters]

I'll just state what is probably obvious to everyone. Statements like this are made in a painfully awkward attempt to shame people into silence for fear of being labeled a pedophile.

The constantly reiterated accusation that Joseph "had sex with a 14-year-old" or similar proceeds from no evidence; therefore it tells us about the character of the accusers rather than their target.

the casual assumptions of those who like to project their own nascent pedophile fantasies upon him.

Pahoran for future reference when trying to manipulate people like this I recommend being more subtle about it.
If you actually have evidence to back up your claims, you should probably just use that. Statements like those above are juvenile and obvious and I highly doubt they'll work on any adult.

[_sunstoned]

If this was just a pro forma, spiritual marriage with no "temporal" component, her statements about it are certainly odd:

http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/26-HelenMarKimball.htm

In 1843 Apostle Heber C. Kimball had an important talk with his only daughter, fourteen-year-old Helen Mar. She wrote: “Without any preliminaries [my Father] asked me if I would believe him if he told me that it was right for married men to take other wives...The first impulse was anger...my sensibilities were painfully touched. I felt such a sense of personal injury and displeasure; for to mention such a thing to me I thought altogether unworthy of my father, and as quick as he spoke, I replied to him, short and emphatically, ‘No I wouldn’t!’...This was the first time that I ever openly manifested anger towards him...Then he commenced talking seriously and reasoned and explained the principle, and why it was again to be established upon the earth. [This] had a similar effect to a sudden shock of a small earthquake.”

Then father “asked me if I would be sealed to Joseph...[and] left me to reflect upon it for the next twenty-four hours...I was sceptical-one minute believed, then doubted. I thought of the love and tenderness that he felt for his only daughter, and I knew that he would not cast her off, and this was the only convincing proof that I had of its being right. I knew that he loved me too well to teach me anything that was not strictly pure, virtuous and exalting in its tendencies; and no one else could have influenced me at that time or brought me to accept of a doctrine so utterly repugnant and so contrary to all of our former ideas and traditions.” Unknown to Helen Mar, Heber and Joseph had already discussed the prospect of Helen Mar becoming one of Joseph’s wives. Heber now sought her agreement. Helen recalls, “Having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet Joseph, he offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet’s own mouth. My father had but one Ewe Lamb, but willingly laid her upon the alter”

After reading this, I have come to the conclusion that Heber Kimball was one sorry excuse of a father.

[_Chap]

And why exactly is Joseph Smith held to a higher standard than the other early prophets and church brothers who practiced polygamy and had sex with their polygamous wives? Did Joseph practice a different type of polygamy than they did?

My Great-Great-Grandfather was an early church leader who lived polygamy. His last wife was only 15 years old when he married her and had sex with her. That's ok and readily accepted? But not ok for Joseph? I don't understand the double standard.

I have never seen an answer to this. No Mormon writer tries to suggest that Joseph Smith's successor, Brigham Young, or any other 19th polygamist, famous or obscure, did not have sex with his polygamous wives. But it is claimed that the prophet to whom the revelation of the restoration of polygamy came did not have sexual relations with anybody except his first wife, Emma. It just doesn't make sense, except in one way.

That way is public relations.

Brigham Young has been more or less written off as any kind of personal model: "Rough, tough old Brigham! He said a lot of strange stuff, and those were hard days out there in the wilderness. But that's all in the past ... and he did establish the church in Utah, so we must not criticize him from a modern standpoint." Joseph Smith, however, must be presented as the ideal of manhood, brave, truthful, principled, a devoted husband to one wife, just like a modern Mormon man is supposed to be. You just can't have him going off and having sex with 33 different women, let alone a fourteen-year old girl. Hence the attempted elision of sex from his polygamous relations, and hence the huge offense and rage when this is questioned.

I'll just state what is probably obvious to everyone. Statements like this are made in a painfully awkward attempt to shame people into silence for fear of being labeled a pedophile.

The constantly reiterated accusation that Joseph "had sex with a 14-year-old" or similar proceeds from no evidence; therefore it tells us about the character of the accusers rather than their target.

the casual assumptions of those who like to project their own nascent pedophile fantasies upon him.

Pahoran for future reference when trying to manipulate people like this I recommend being more subtle about it.
If you actually have evidence to back up your claims, you should probably just use that. Statements like those above are juvenile and obvious and I highly doubt they'll work on any adult.

Yup. Pahoran went out on a limb here, and all it took to saw through the branch in question was a little attention to the evidence.

[_Chap]

Here is a nice example of a PR piece which not only elides sexuality from Joseph Smith's relation with his plural wives, but even elides the wives themselves:

http://Mormon.org/fra/joseph-smith

Quand sa vie était en danger, Joseph se fiait à sa foi en Jésus-Christ, non seulement pour être soutenu lui, mais aussi pour que sa femme et ses enfants soient soutenus.

Translation:

"When his life was in danger, Joseph relied on his faith in Jesus Christ, not only that he would be sustained, but also that his wife and his children would be sustained."

Just one wife. Not thirty-three. Not even two. Sorry about that, ladies. You are too inconvenient to rate a mention.

[_why me]

You don't honestly believe an 18th century horn dog would be able to have so much sex without leaving a trail of children do you? Your only answer so far has been and will be speculation and innuendo.

Did you mean 19th?

Abortion was available.

Withdrawal was available.

Pessaries of various materials were available.

By 1838 rubber diaphrams were available.

By 1838 condoms made from rubber (who'd have thought) were available.

Maybe...but then where would the women buy them? At the LDS general store? And who would do the abortion? Brother James MD? We need to do a reality check.

[_why me]

One interesting tidbit about all this. Not one women ever claimed that Joseph Smith was a horn dog after a good romp. All seemed to have the utmost respect for Joseph Smith. And this says much about the man. Of course, critics want to play up the Joseph as horny dog angle with the tongue always out for a good time. But the evidence says the opposite.

[_why me]

Here is a nice example of a PR piece which not only elides sexuality from Joseph Smith's relation with his plural wives, but even elides the wives themselves:

http://Mormon.org/fra/joseph-smith

Quand sa vie était en danger, Joseph se fiait à sa foi en Jésus-Christ, non seulement pour être soutenu lui, mais aussi pour que sa femme et ses enfants soient soutenus.

Translation:

"When his life was in danger, Joseph relied on his faith in Jesus Christ, not only that he would be sustained, but also that his wife and his children would be sustained."

Just one wife. Not thirty-three. Not even two. Sorry about that, ladies. You are too inconvenient to rate a mention.

And yet, we find this:

The Bible indicates that Abraham, Jacob, and others of the Lord’s servants had multiple wives (see Genesis 16:1–3; 29:23–30; 30:4, 9; Judges 8:30; 1 Samuel 1:1–2). Joseph Smith asked God why He had permitted this practice and was told that God had commanded it for specific purposes. One reason given by the Lord for plural marriage is mentioned in the Book of Mormon: “If I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall [have only one wife]” (Jacob 2:30; see also v. 27).

After God revealed the doctrine of plural marriage to Joseph Smith in 1831 and commanded him to live it, the Prophet, over a period of years, cautiously taught the doctrine to some close associates. Eventually, he and a small number of Church leaders entered into plural marriages in the early years of the Church. Those who practiced plural marriage at that time, both male and female, experienced a significant trial of their faith. The practice was so foreign to them that they needed and received personal inspiration from God to help them obey the commandment.

When the Saints moved west under the direction of Brigham Young, more Latter-day Saints entered into plural marriages.

Influenced by rumors and exaggerated reports, the United States Congress, beginning in 1862, enacted a series of laws against polygamy that became increasingly harsh. By the 1880s many Latter-day Saint men were imprisoned or went into hiding.

http://www.LDS.org/topics/polygamy-plur ... h+polygamy

[_Chap]

Since I am eager to know what kind of arguments can be made in favor of Pahoran's position that only nascent perverts could imagine that Joseph Smith might have had sex with Helen Mar Kimball, a girl to whom he was married, I have broken my rule and read whyme's three posts.

To sum them up, the points he makes amount to:

1. On the possibility of condom use, he asks where the women might have bought them. He also asks who might have performed any abortions that may have taken place.

RESPONSE: condoms in pre-modern times were not disposable. A man typically owned one condom, cleaned it after use, and re-used it. Women were not expected to go out and buy them. If Smith used a condom, the need for abortions would have been greatly diminished.

2. He notes that no women seem to have complimented Joseph on his sexual prowess.

RESPONSE: The point is not whether Joseph Smith was a satisfactory sexual partner for all the women he married, just that he had sex with them. Several of his wives swore affidavits to that effect, which the CoJCoLDS submitted as evidence in the Temple Lot Case.

3. He notes that at least one LDS site does mention polygamy.

RESPONSE: It would be pretty odd if the topic was never ever mentioned. But it is significant that the church has no reluctance about publicly circulating material that clearly implies to the uninitiated that Joseph Smith had only one wife - see the example I give. And some LDS who do admit to the plural marriages do seem anxious to deny that sexual relationships were part of those marriages in Smith's case - and only in Smith's case amongst all Mormon polygamists. It is the latter point that I find particularly puzzling, but I think I can see why this is done: see above.