New Steve Smoot Refutes Jeremy Runnells on J.S. Papyri

[_Symmachus]

From a professional standpoint, there is no reason why professors or graduate students should be going after an obvious amateur (not intended as a slur) publication about Mormon history in the context of personal belief in those claims. Obviously, their reasons are not professional but personal, yet they do so wearing their roles as academics.

Excellent point. But, I would add that if you want a professional to weigh in, find someone with a PhD in Mormon Studies, not an Egyptology student or a Near Eastern Studies professor, both of whom are amateur scholars of Mormonism.

I hadn't articulated it to myself this way but that certainly makes a lot of sense. Maybe that is one other, professional reason why people like Gee are so threatened by the rise of Mormon Studies. The expertise they claim, over against Mormon Studies, is that they, as literalist believers, know more about Mormonism, and are therefore the only qualified experts to pronounce on it.

But if so, why is it so hard to say something like, "speaking as a believer and not as an Egyptologist"...? The fact that they don't give these disclaimers is what makes the enterprise ethically dubious to me.

And of course I love the irony that this was addressed to a CES director, which means it really is a pastoral issue, but when he didn't respond, what Runnells got instead was an Arabic teacher and an Egyptology student. That's LDS pastoral care for you!

[_Tom]

A degree in Egyptology doesn't command a lot of respect among people like those at CES, who have degrees in education and business and law and gym teaching and who measure academic contribution in terms of Church callings and relationships with General Authorities.

By the way, it isn't CES any more and hasn't been for some time.

Symmachus' reference was accurate. BYU, BYU-Idaho, BYU-Hawaii, LDS Business College, BYU-Pathway Worldwide, and Seminaries and Institutes of Religion are classified as individual CES units.

https://LDS.org/church-education/purpos ... s?lang=eng
https://LDS.org/church-education/about/ ... n?lang=eng

Seminaries and Institutes of Religion Timeline: A Century of Seminary

....

2008

On March 10, the Church Board of Education announces an organization name change from the Church Educational System (CES) to Seminaries and Institutes of Religion (S&I). This change is made to eliminate the confusion previously caused when people used the term CES while referring only to S&I. The Church Educational System encompasses Brigham Young University, Brigham Young University–Hawaii, Brigham Young University–Idaho, LDS Business College, and Seminaries and Institutes of Religion (which includes elementary and secondary schools in the Pacific and Mexico).

https://www.LDS.org/si/history/seminaries-and-institutes-timeline

[_Yahoo Bot]

And of course I love the irony that this was addressed to a CES director, which means it really is a pastoral issue, but when he didn't respond, what Runnells got instead was an Arabic teacher and an Egyptology student. That's LDS pastoral care for you!

And, since I have serious doubts about a lot of apologia, that doesn't really concern me. The SI program set up for pastoral care.

So I don't care one way another about Bro. Smoot and his career choices. But you're really overstating things by saying he'll be considered a buffoon at his defense (if where he's at requires a defense) by reason of his hobby.

[_Symmachus]

So I don't care one way another about Bro. Smoot and his career choices. But you're really overstating things by saying he'll be considered a buffoon at his defense (if where he's at requires a defense) by reason of his hobby.

You're wildly misstating whatever I'm overstating. I never said anything at all about his dissertation defense—that was something you interjected—nor did I say he'd be considered a buffoon in any context.

You've obviously been drinking again and it's not even lunch time over there. I hope you're ok.

[_Kishkumen]

But if so, why is it so hard to say something like, "speaking as a believer and not as an Egyptologist"...? The fact that they don't give these disclaimers is what makes the enterprise ethically dubious to me.

Well, Religious Studies used to be something Marxist academics did, and these days at BYU it is still something that the University provides no institutional home for. There is no department of Religious Studies. There is a Religion Department. BYU lacks the cultural and institutional support for the very thing that would provide competent resources to someone who is looking to understand common contemporary religious issues as they pertain to Mormonism.

And of course I love the irony that this was addressed to a CES director, which means it really is a pastoral issue, but when he didn't respond, what Runnells got instead was an Arabic teacher and an Egyptology student. That's LDS pastoral care for you!

And that is because there is not pastoral care and there are no pastors. Pastors are Protestants. Not Mormon clergy. Now there are a few voices raising the issue of pastoral apologetics, but they are in the wilderness. Deseret Books is not publishing such works. I think Greg Kofford Books may have something forthcoming on the topic.

So, the institutional lack and theological bias against professional clergy has consequences. When everyone approaches the religion as a sacred business or as laypeople, there is no real counseling, no informed spiritual guidance (outside of charismatic manifestations), and no pastoral care for the disillusioned. There was FARMS, FAIR, and MDDB with the hammer out, ready to push you out of the ward building with a thousand blows of blame, shame, and deflect.

[_Themis]

Could it rather be that this is what Smoot has wanted to do his entire life, and he is following his dream? Did "they" tell Thomas Aquinas to become a church apologist? Are "they" (some other "they") telling you to abandon your heritage and your life's belief to come out as a gadfly on a fourth-rate internet board?

I am sure Smoot is having a ball since his mind is restless and his desire to be good and help is enormous, and I love that kid for all that. Everything any of us do will be for our good and experience. I am so grateful to God (if there is one) for this message board. It has been an enormous soothing and psychological blessing to read so many ideas and continue my education and learning and making new friends. It may be fourth rate to you, but its pure blessing to me.

I guess fourth rate is where yahoo bot belongs since he has been hanging around here for years.

[_Yahoo Bot]

You're wildly misstating whatever I'm overstating. I never said anything at all about his dissertation defense—that was something you interjected—nor did I say he'd be considered a buffoon in any context.

You've obviously been drinking again and it's not even lunch time over there. I hope you're ok.

I just quote from you.

[_Kishkumen]

Did "they" tell Thomas Aquinas to become a church apologist?

Because becoming a Dominican friar in 13th century Europe is totally the same as becoming a Mopologist in 21st century America. Totes. Same prestige, same general cultural credibility, all the same.

[_Yahoo Bot]

Did "they" tell Thomas Aquinas to become a church apologist?

Because becoming a Dominican friar in 13th century Europe is totally the same as becoming a Mopologist in 21st century America. Totes. Same prestige, same general cultural credibility, all the same.

I agree.

[_Gadianton]

Bot/waterdog,

There's a spectrum, and the difference that puts our aspiring scholar friend on the questionable side is that he has a fundamentalist agenda vs. the liberal agenda of the rest on your list.

What I'm not sure is known is the objective. A person could pursue a phd just for the experience of it.

Hope both of your respective hunting dogs are doing well.