Facsimile No. 3 printing plate reveals jackal head Anubis

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_Shulem
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Re: Facsimile No. 3 printing plate reveals jackal head Anubi

Post by _Shulem »

Lemmie wrote:Also, just to play devil's advocate, suppose the cut marks are a normal artifact of carving. Maybe consider comparing the marks around the missing snout area to marks around the heads of other characters to see if there is a clear difference.


The carving in front of Anubis' face is unique to the Facsimile woodcut. The other characters don't have an unusual foot print with hash marks. It's all too early to say. We need expert advice in 19th century woodworking. I'm sure we will get just that all in good time. LDS apologists will be tackling this matter very soon, I suppose. The word will get out!
_Fence Sitter
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Re: Facsimile No. 3 printing plate reveals jackal head Anubi

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Shulem wrote:
The missing headcloth is a curious concern, I grant that. I don't ever recall seeing Anubis without some kind of headcloth. This certainly deserves attention and further review. I don't think all the answers are going to pop up in a single day.

Hence the brainstorming.


If I recall correctly someone (another reference I need to chase down) has pointed out that in Facsimile#1 you can see traces of the head cloth on Anubis' shoulder just above and to the right of the raised foot of the deceased Osiris. Another indication the Joseph Smith incorrectly restored the Jackal head of Anubis as a human head in Fac #1
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Lemmie
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Re: Facsimile No. 3 printing plate reveals jackal head Anubi

Post by _Lemmie »

Shulem wrote:
Lemmie wrote:Also, just to play devil's advocate, suppose the cut marks are a normal artifact of carving. Maybe consider comparing the marks around the missing snout area to marks around the heads of other characters to see if there is a clear difference.


The carving in front of Anubis' face is unique to the Facsimile woodcut. The other characters don't have an unusual foot print with hash marks. It's all too early to say. We need expert advice in 19th century woodworking. I'm sure we will get just that all in good time. LDS apologists will be tackling this matter very soon, I suppose. The word will get out!

Wow, I just looked again at the full woodcut--you're right, it is so obvious now that that area was treated differently than any other part. Isn't philo a woodcarver?
_Shulem
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Re: Facsimile No. 3 printing plate reveals jackal head Anubi

Post by _Shulem »

Fence Sitter wrote:If I recall correctly someone (another reference I need to chase down) has pointed out that in Facsimile#1 you can see traces of the head cloth on Anubis' shoulder just above and to the right of the raised foot of the deceased Osiris. Another indication the Joseph Smith incorrectly restored the Jackal head of Anubis as a human head in Fac #1


Indeed.

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/egyptian-papyri-circa-300-bc-ad-50/1

The high resolution photo under full magnification of the original papyrus for Facsimile No. 1 reveals gentle strokes of ink in circular motion that may well be material ends of the headcloth itself.

A professional examination by Egyptologists is in order.
_Shulem
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Re: Facsimile No. 3 printing plate reveals jackal head Anubi

Post by _Shulem »

Lemmie wrote:Wow, I just looked again at the full woodcut--you're right, it is so obvious now that that area was treated differently than any other part. Isn't philo a woodcarver?


Yes, and the magnification feature works wonders. The church finally did something right, for a change. Unfortunately for the church, it's going to cause the faith crisis to swell even more. Apologists are going to have to go back into full apologetic mode and some of them will throw in the towel and call it quits.

:smile:
_Shulem
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Re: Facsimile No. 3 printing plate reveals jackal head Anubi

Post by _Shulem »

Shulem wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:If I recall correctly someone (another reference I need to chase down) has pointed out that in Facsimile#1 you can see traces of the head cloth on Anubis' shoulder just above and to the right of the raised foot of the deceased Osiris. Another indication the Joseph Smith incorrectly restored the Jackal head of Anubis as a human head in Fac #1


Indeed.

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/egyptian-papyri-circa-300-bc-ad-50/1

The high resolution photo under full magnification of the original papyrus for Facsimile No. 1 reveals gentle strokes of ink in circular motion that may well be material ends of the headcloth itself.

A professional examination by Egyptologists is in order.


There is a 99.999% likelihood that Egyptologist John Gee has already scanned high resolution images for Facsimile No. 1 and probably the papyrus itself, firsthand -- but have we heard anything about the missing headcloth bordering the arm and lacuna?

Would John Gee confirm there was originally a headcloth suitable for the jackal head of Anubis?

[ ] Yes
[ ] No
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Facsimile No. 3 printing plate reveals jackal head Anubi

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Just so I'm tracking this development correctly, you're saying that Joseph Smith knew the slave or Anubis figure actually had the head of a jackal, and he deliberatley removed it?

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Symmachus
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Re: Facsimile No. 3 printing plate reveals jackal head Anubi

Post by _Symmachus »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Just so I'm tracking this development correctly, you're saying that Joseph Smith knew the slave or Anubis figure actually had the head of a jackal, and he deliberatley removed it?

- Doc


Add me to the line of the curious on this question. I do not possess anything like Shulem's erudition on this topic, so I want to make sure I understand:

1) the facsimile claims the dark-skinned humanoid is a slave named Olimlah
2) the text above "Olimlah" actually says "the recitation of Anubis..." and positing Anubis makes sense here
3) we longer have that portion of the papyri to see what the image actually was, so we have to rely on the facsimile
4) the apologetic claim is that each of these vignettes that survive are unique, so it could be a person rather than Anubis
5) you are suggesting that the woodcut originally had a one-eared Anubis (or in other words only one ear was drawn in the original)
6) Joseph Smith had the head of the jackal etched away, leaving behind an odd-looking eye and a stumpy ear above the head.

Am I right? If so, it all seems to hinge on establishing 5). Sanctorian's image shows quite clearly that something was etched away where we would expect the snout of Anubis, but on the other hand I'm not sure that is a strong point, because ultimately this is a relief that depends on creating the illusion of depth by etching away everything not part of the image. The only reason this empty space is more significant that other empty space is because we can imagine a snout going there—confirmation bias, in other words. I think the only way to be sure would be to examine the original plates and to see if the area in question is deeper or higher than the surrounding areas; that would indicate that some special attention was given to that empty space as opposed to all of the other empty space created in the engraving. And the one problem that is difficult for me is not the missing snout—which I agree could have fit into the space—but the short ear. All of the images I can see contain an Anubis with quite long ears, but there is no space for there to have been a larger ear there, since a larger ear would have run right into the text. So I would try to get some comparative data here; are there other images of Anubis with correspondingly short ears? Maybe it's immaterial from one point of view, because the text is quite explicit as to who this is.

Item 5) certainly does complicate the liberal Mormon view of Joseph Smith. The conservative position became ridiculous the moment an Egyptologist could read the name of Anubis above Anubis, but the liberal position—that these texts were a catalyst for Joseph to receive inspiration—doesn't hold together so well if Smith was doctoring the texts in order to fit his conception of those texts. No longer would we have a Joseph who is exerting his mind to puzzle out the meaning of the Egyptian, relying on the mind of the Lord to fill in the gaps of his understanding and the will of God to bring the world a view of theology that would one day be comfortable for nostalgic Mormon bloggers. When one feels inspired to change a document in order to make one's claims about the document seem more believable, one is engaging in forgery.

In any event, if we believe the apologists, then Olimlah must have looked something like this:

Image
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_Fence Sitter
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Re: Facsimile No. 3 printing plate reveals jackal head Anubi

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Symmachus wrote:Add me to the line of the curious on this question. I do not possess anything like Shulem's erudition on this topic, so I want to make sure I understand:

1) the facsimile claims the dark-skinned humanoid is a slave named Olimlah
2) the text above "Olimlah" actually says "the recitation of Anubis..." and positing Anubis makes sense here.


There is no question this is Anubis, even Rhodes calls him Anubis.

Symmachus wrote:3) we [no]longer have that portion of the papyri to see what the image actually was, so we have to rely on the facsimile
4) the apologetic claim is that each of these vignettes that survive are unique, so it could be a person rather than Anubis
What apologists are really doing is trying to point out the discrepancies between similar vignettes and suggest that somehow the vignettes from Joseph Smith are uniquely unique. Egyptologist like Lanny Bell have pointed out that all of these vignettes were created individually by different scribes over hundreds of years and that each one is different in the same way those differences are found on the Hor scroll. Important to note here is that the text accompanying these vignettes was standard but the vignettes themselves "display great variations" So uniqueness in the vignettes in and of itself means nothing. That is still Anubis.
Symmachus wrote:5) you are suggesting that the woodcut originally had a one-eared Anubis (or in other words only one ear was drawn in the original)
6) Joseph Smith had the head of the jackal etched away, leaving behind an odd-looking eye and a stumpy ear above the head.


Even though I see your point about the stumpy ear, I agree with Shulem here, it looks like the snout was carved away after the fact. A strong reason to believe this, besides the woodcut itself, is that there are no other discrepancies in the Facsimile #3 that stand out as being non-Egyptological. It appears to be in its original shape contrary to the case of the other two facsimiles in which we can clearly see where they vary from expected Egyptological norms. We pretty much knew where Joseph Smith filled in on his own on both of the other facsimiles even before the originals were discovered. Joseph Smith's attempts at restoring the damaged parts of facsimiles #1 & #2 were so bad that even without the originals, Egyptologist were able to determine precisely where the originals stopped and Joseph Smith filled in.

Symmachus wrote:Am I right? If so, it all seems to hinge on establishing 5). Sanctorian's image shows quite clearly that something was etched away where we would expect the snout of Anubis, but on the other hand I'm not sure that is a strong point, because ultimately this is a relief that depends on creating the illusion of depth by etching away everything not part of the image. The only reason this empty space is more significant that other empty space is because we can imagine a snout going there—confirmation bias, in other words. I think the only way to be sure would be to examine the original plates and to see if the area in question is deeper or higher than the surrounding areas; that would indicate that some special attention was given to that empty space as opposed to all of the other empty space created in the engraving. And the one problem that is difficult for me is not the missing snout—which I agree could have fit into the space—but the short ear. All of the images I can see contain an Anubis with quite long ears, but there is no space for there to have been a larger ear there, since a larger ear would have run right into the text. So I would try to get some comparative data here; are there other images of Anubis with correspondingly short ears? Maybe it's immaterial from one point of view, because the text is quite explicit as to who this is.


So I understand how confirmation bias could come into play here but this is Anubis and unless one could come up with another vignette from a similar time period showing Anubis drawn this way, without a snout, I think one has to conclude it was removed.

Now the question is who and when. Given that the entire area around the snout remains Egyptologically consistent I think we can conclude the snout was there when it arrived in Kirtland, now as to why it isn't in the reproduction of the facsimile, it would have to be Hedlock on his own (doubtful) or per instructions from Joseph Smith at the time Joseph Smith reviewed the carving. I am betting on the latter.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Shulem
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Re: Facsimile No. 3 printing plate reveals jackal head Anubi

Post by _Shulem »

Symmachus wrote:Add me to the line of the curious on this question. I do not possess anything like Shulem's erudition on this topic, so I want to make sure I understand:


I think Fence Sitter did a fine job answering your questions and elaborating on your observations. Nonetheless, I'll weigh in a bit:

YES! -- "the facsimile claims the dark-skinned humanoid is a slave named Olimlah"

YES! -- "the text above 'Olimlah' actually says 'the recitation of Anubis...' and positing Anubis makes sense here"

YES! -- "we [no] longer have that portion of the papyri to see what the image actually was, so we have to rely on the facsimile"

YES! -- "the apologetic claim is that each of these vignettes that survive are unique, so it could be a person rather than Anubis"

YES! -- "you are suggesting that the woodcut originally had a one-eared Anubis (or in other words only one ear was drawn in the original)"

YES! -- "Joseph Smith had the head of the jackal etched away, leaving behind an odd-looking eye and a stumpy ear above the head."

~ I may weigh in a little more later

Symmachus,

Which way do you tend to lean knowing what you know right now? On a scale of 1-10: 1 being there is no way there was a nose and 10 being there was most certainly a nose.

[ ] 1 (definitely no)
[ ] 2
[ ] 3
[ ] 4
[ ] 5
[ ] 6
[ ] 7
[ ] 8
[ ] 9
[ ] 10 (definitely yes)
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