The Millennials simplified.

[_moinmoin]

I suspect had fetchface found the Church to be a reliable source for sharing it's own history or Joseph Smith to have been a morally supportable vehicle for sharing Gods will perhaps leadership failure would be limited to seeing those leaders as the problem and not the Church itself.

Perhaps those experiences open the door for people to question the foundation of their worldview but the results of that investigation come down to how well it withstands that scrutiny.

Of course. Everyone's mileage varies. Sometimes greatly.

It comes down to individual experience, interpretation, prioritizing of information, reaction, etc. And, reasonable people sometimes see the same things differently.

[_Morley]

I think the Church can be really hard for introverts.

Agreed.

It can be even tougher for intellectuals.

[_moinmoin]

It can be even tougher for intellectuals.

Yes, it can. But, doesn't have to be. And isn't always.

[_honorentheos]

I suspect had fetchface found the Church to be a reliable source for sharing it's own history or Joseph Smith to have been a morally supportable vehicle for sharing Gods will perhaps leadership failure would be limited to seeing those leaders as the problem and not the Church itself.

Perhaps those experiences open the door for people to question the foundation of their worldview but the results of that investigation come down to how well it withstands that scrutiny.

Of course. Everyone's mileage varies. Sometimes greatly.

It comes down to individual experience, interpretation, prioritizing of information, reaction, etc. And, reasonable people sometimes see the same things differently.

The church is the heart of the problem, not the individuals. And not because the leadership isn't living up to the promise. It's not what it's claimed to be.

[_I have a question]

I think the Church can be really hard for introverts.

Agreed.

It can be even tougher for intellectuals.

So, in summary, the Church is a positive place for extrovert married child-bearing heterosexual white conservatives who are prepared to park their questions and do as they are told. Everyone else is a drag-inducing barnacle who the Church would be well rid of. Apparently. Wasn’t it Mr Uchtdorf who said “Don’t join with us, there isn’t room for all”?

[_fetchface]

I suspect had fetchface found the Church to be a reliable source for sharing it's own history or Joseph Smith to have been a morally supportable vehicle for sharing Gods will perhaps leadership failure would be limited to seeing those leaders as the problem and not the Church itself.

Perhaps those experiences open the door for people to question the foundation of their worldview but the results of that investigation come down to how well it withstands that scrutiny.

Agreed. I don't think that I ever saw the imperfections of my leaders as a big problem, nor do I think it really significantly contributed to my disaffection in any way. I'd summarize it like this:

1. The church promised I would be happy if I participated enthusiastically. I noticed that my happiness was inversely proportional to my degree of church participation. This has held true at every moment of my life that I can remember.

2. This opened the door for me to critically analyze my beliefs without fear. I concluded that Joseph made prophetic clams that were false, committed serious immoral acts, and finally that the God of Abraham was also undeniably morally impaired.

I still think my leaders were good men who were just deluded in thinking that God was directing them in their interactions with me when it was simply their own inner voice.

[_fetchface]

I think you've been let down by leaders, as well (your mission president, your bishop/stake president when you were an EQP, etc.).

I think the Church can be really hard for introverts. Under the new adult "Come Follow Me" initiative, there is a focus on more "group discussion and present to the class" in Sunday School (at least in the last two wards I've been in). The intent is to flush out the wallflowers and not leave them room to hide, but for many, that safe space to hide and just listen and think is exactly what they need, and trying to put them on the spot can drive them away. When I was a bishop, I could address that (one of our GD teachers was really aggressive about calling on people who weren't volunteering, and having an attitude of "We'll wait." I had to tell her to cease and desist, because there were introverted people who wouldn't go when it was her turn to teach).

No doubt I was let down by leaders, but this would have been a minor issue if the church delivered on its promise of happiness.

Thanks for bringing up this point about hunting the introverts like this and making them participate in class more. In my memories of my childhood I am haunted by the perpetual fear and anxiety I felt at church at the possibility of being called on randomly to share thoughts about things that I didn't feel like sharing my thoughts on. It's hard to describe how distasteful this was to people who don't feel it. I think the Q15 and the Q70s are almost exclusively made up of the type of people who have a difficult time grasping this.

[_toon]

[quote="moinmoin]In many ways, it was stronger before it collected the drag-inducing barnacles of uncommitted members.[/quote]

To a large extent, those barnacles are the kids of committed members. The problem is that once you winnow out the uncommitted members (assuming that's what's really going on), the remaining committed members will have kids, many of which will grow up to be uncommitted members. So the process repeats.

[_Lemmie]

That's a difficult position to support, based on your statements. How can it be you behaving "successfully" in the LDS church when things go well for you, but when someone else makes the same commitment and it doesn't work, that it's the fault of their leaders?

I wasn't blaming it on his leaders. I was simply pointing out (as fetchface has referred to in the past) that past leaders have contributed to where he is now. Not the penultimate reason, but a contributing factor.

I didn't think you were saying it was the 'next to last' reason either, but since it was your only comment, yes, it did seem like you were blaming his leaders.

For example, had his mission president not betrayed and failed him (as he's explained), I wonder if anything would be different for him. Maybe nothing. But, putting myself in his shoes with what happened on his mission, that betrayal would certainly have had some sort of impact on me and how I view church authority. And then with his subsequent struggles as an EQP with his young family, etc., well, they're all factors in the loss of belief. Not the sum total, but parts.

Again, I'm having difficulty seeing the logic of this position, given your prior statements. Your argument is that it is family commitment that keeps the LDS position going, so how can you say these random issues (MP, EQ calling, betrayal) can be a significant enough factor that it actually takes a person off the LDS path? You say that the impact on you of a MP betrayal would certainly have had an impact, so is it just pure dumb luck that none of the family members you've described have had experiences that have altered their- or your- opinion of LDS leadership?

[_fetchface]

Wow, fetchface, that's a brutal position to be in while trying to raise babies. I'm glad you were able to change things. I don't believe in a god, but if i did, i can't possibly imagine one who would sanction limiting the definition of a good and successful life the way TBMs do.

Thanks, a few years ago I attended the stake conference where they called a new stake president here. He's got a whole gaggle of kids but I felt sick to my stomach when they asked his wife to come up and do the testimony thing and she had to hand an infant off to her husband to do it. He paced back and forth bouncing the baby up on the stand while she talked. Quite a sight.

I remember the instant I lost my faith, there was a sense of dread for what lay in front of me coupled with a very intense sense of ecstatic happiness and relief that I would never have to be a bishop. Strangest feeling I have ever felt.