DiscussMormonism.com

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:08 am

Did not recall that you are active, believing LDS! Glad you are here.

Thanks! I'm glad to be here. Yes, I've flirted with atheism since early in my mission in 1979, but I'm simply not the kind of person that would seriously consider a universe without God in charge of it.

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:38 am

For me the upshot of this is that the statement is a later development and not present in earliest Mormonism. I find it odd, and it is telling, in my view, that it gains strength in an era when people were increasingly seeing things in stark binaries such as capitalism vs. communism.

After my readings yesterday I had the impression the earliest generation of saints who were likely to have known Joseph Smith, or their parents knew Joseph Smith, spoke of the truthfulness of the restoration. It may be a generational shift where the phrase evolved as an expression meant to convey the same intent but the association was with what that generation knew as the thing that made them unique from others - the church as symbol for all that is Mormonism.

I would add the real upshot for me was finding and reading the paper on B.H. Roberts and the intellectual peers with whom he met to discuss issues with the Book of Mormon after the leadership gave it a shrug. It's been a very, very long time since I've read something related to Mormonism and really enjoyed the experience. Most often the information is warmed over, polemic or parochial, or otherwise tedious. That was refreshing. Paid for the time spent with interest.

toon wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:17 pm

Moksha wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:54 am

Which is the truest automobile manufacturer: General Motors or Toyota?
Was the Vespa the world's truest motor scooter?

I brought my bike wheels to the mechanic the other day to have them trued. Maybe when people say that the church is true, all they are saying is that it is in alignment with its self. Something correlation accomplishes.

What Elvis Costello saying when he tells Allison this is aim is true? That he’s sincere? Perhaps the church is sincere.

So the church as an organization can be true, even though all it’s truth and supernatural claims are baloney.

I should have gone to church yesterday and shared my testimony.

The Book of Mormon is true, whilst most everything else is not.

KevinSim wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:25 am

I've flirted with atheism since early in my mission in 1979, but I'm simply not the kind of person that would seriously consider a universe without God in charge of it.

What kind of person would you need to be to seriously consider a universe without <insert your favourite flavour of deity> in charge of it?

IHAQ wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:41 am

KevinSim wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:25 am

I've flirted with atheism since early in my mission in 1979, but I'm simply not the kind of person that would seriously consider a universe without God in charge of it.

What kind of person would you need to be to seriously consider a universe without <insert your favourite flavour of deity> in charge of it?

good question! I read his comment as noting that, in his starting conditions, he is unable to NOT assume his conclusion. in other words, he has no capacity to reach a conclusion not already dictated by how he currently lives. indoctrination dies hard.

KevinSim wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:25 am

. . . I've flirted with atheism since early in my mission in 1979, but I'm simply not the kind of person that would seriously consider a universe without God in charge of it.

KevinSim wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:25 am

Back in Autumn 1976 as a seventeen-year-old, I asked God if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was true, and God told me yes. That's why I believe in that Church.

So, God answered your prayers in 1976, but you started to “flirt with atheism” since 1979?



Let us know when you get your stories straight and want to actually engage in good faith discussion about Mormonism.

- Doc

honorentheos wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:38 am

After my readings yesterday I had the impression the earliest generation of saints who were likely to have known Joseph Smith, or their parents knew Joseph Smith, spoke of the truthfulness of the restoration. It may be a generational shift where the phrase evolved as an expression meant to convey the same intent but the association was with what that generation knew as the thing that made them unique from others - the church as symbol for all that is Mormonism.

Very nicely put. Are you focusing on the late 19th century instances?

I would add the real upshot for me was finding and reading the paper on B.H. Roberts and the intellectual peers with whom he met to discuss issues with the Book of Mormon after the leadership gave it a shrug. It's been a very, very long time since I've read something related to Mormonism and really enjoyed the experience. Most often the information is warmed over, polemic or parochial, or otherwise tedious. That was refreshing. Paid for the time spent with interest.

We may be using the term upshot in different ways, but I like what you are conveying here!

KevinSim wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:25 am

Thanks! I'm glad to be here. Yes, I've flirted with atheism since early in my mission in 1979, but I'm simply not the kind of person that would seriously consider a universe without God in charge of it.

Interesting! Thanks for sharing. I am not sure what being in charge means for a Supreme Deity.

KevinSim wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:25 am

Yes, I've flirted with atheism since early in my mission in 1979, but I'm simply not the kind of person that would seriously consider a universe without God in charge of it.

God and the universe are one and the same.

- The Sayings of J. Parkinson Dehlin, Vol 1

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:59 pm

KevinSim wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:25 am

Thanks! I'm glad to be here. Yes, I've flirted with atheism since early in my mission in 1979, but I'm simply not the kind of person that would seriously consider a universe without God in charge of it.

Interesting! Thanks for sharing. I am not sure what being in charge means for a Supreme Deity.

\

Well, if he (sorry, He) is in charge, what is he going to do about Global Heating?