I appreciate your response, msnobody. It's good to have some thoughtful engagement.
msnobody wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 11:05 pm
This is quite a weighty post and one I’ve been pondering for days. I suppose we wouldn’t have these conversations if God had not placed eternity in the hearts of men, or created us in his image. I’ve been reading
Unseen Realm by Michael Heiser, which speaks of God’s heavenly hosts or divine council; some fallen and some not, and how God allows free will not only with man, but also with the heavenly hosts. In the book, he discusses the Fall in Genesis chapter 3, Nephilim in chapter 6, and the Tower of Babel in chapter 11 and how each of these escalated rebellions against God resulted in proliferation of depravity.
If genesis chapter 3 and 6 represent myths not likely events in history, then I'm not sure this helps a great deal. And how would someone from that era know if these events in particular resulted in the proliferation of depravity, whatever that might mean, or if the proliferation would have happened anyway? I'm glad you brought up free will because this seems to speak to that as well, how could we possibly know if something would really be different, given something other than what did happen, happen? I don't see how we could know.
I certainly don’t think God enjoys seeing his creation suffer. He has allowed it, however.
I struggle to see how there is a difference here. If God wants us to suffer so we can, what, come out stronger, then it appears He enjoys it, to whatever extent. We need it. He wants us to do good (?) right? If the magnificent all knowing and all powerful one allows something, it only stands to reason he wills that something, which speaks to what he really wants or enjoys, I'd think.
In a sense, in our own rebellion, we too have allowed it. We are told that this life is like a mist as compared to all eternity. The Apostle Paul in Romans chapter 8, tells us that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed in us, and that creation groans for redemption. I hear this groaning in your post. I would suggest that the suffering and evil in the world grieves us because we are created in the image of God, and are to be imagers of him in the world.
It could be, I suppose. But then I struggle to see the good in it.
We say that God isn’t fair, but it certainly isn’t fair that God, in the person of Jesus Christ, took upon himself God’s wrath for our sins.
It's more than fair. We, after all, don't know what we're doing, as God would have it. If we sin, we are likely too foolish to realize why it's bad or how its bad. It seems God should be forgiving us whether Jesus was sacrificed or not. We're encouraged if we're forgiven freely without sacrifice, it seems to me. WE're just learning and growing, apparently...why would God get upset with us for our mistakes?
However, it was necessary as it is God’s plan to redeem us. One day evil will be eradication and there will be no more death and suffering for us. We will live as God initially intended.
If evil is eradicated does that mean we would no longer have free will? Also if it's God's plan to redeem some of us, it must also be God's plan to humiliate and completely and utterly destroy us or ruin us, at least some of us. God seems rather conflicted, no?
I think it is more that we go to extensive futile effort to try to hide ourselves from God. He tells us that He isn’t far from each one of us. To find him, we have come to the realization of who we are, and we must surrender our heart and will to Him. There is a spiritual battle going on for the souls of men in this unseen realm.
I guess that’s all I have to say for now.
If true, it seems like if he really cared, then we'd be without reason to not believe. Instead we have tons of reasons to not believe, as evidenced by thinkers who fail to believe.