Anderson's Venezuela bakery story...as a lever to get you to pay tithing

[huckelberry]

Thanks, Huck. Stepping out of the context of COJCOLDS accumulation of wealth, I think that belief in Jesus as God requires wrestling with some hard problems. Although I don’t pretend to have any expertise on the subject, apocalyptic Jewish preacher seem to me most consistent with the words attributed to him. The notion that his disciples would not get their reward in heaven until over 2000 years has passed doesn’t, in my opinion, fit with the feeling of urgency in his message. Drop everything, including your family, and follow me (whatever that means) isn’t sustainable for anything close to 2000 years.

I don’t consider Jesus divine, and I don’t claim to be a disciple or follower. That puts him in that large category of people I use as resources to help me be a good person. If I believed he was God? I imagine I’d try my best to follow what he taught to his disciples and simply trust him to know me and be my judge. That’s pretty much what I see Christians I’ve had these kind of discussions do in their daily lives.

What I tend to push back on is people who try to rationalize doing things that are contrary to Jesus’ words. Prosperity gospel preachers, for example. 7th Mountain Dominionist Type sects for another example.

I’m going to push back on your example of the rich man. That’s one of the most rationalized away of Jesus’ teachings. There is nothing in the text that indicates this was special teachings for one guy or a limited audience. What he said is consistent with the attitude he expresses about wealth and worldly riches throughout the gospels. I think it’s perfectly fine to have aspirational goals that one cannot meet. My objection is inventing rationalizations to validate the shortcomings as being Christlike.

I dunno if that’s an adequate response to your comments. If not, let me know and I’ll take another shot.

Thanks Res Ipsa for a thoughtful reply.

I find I must consider a couple of things. I generally fall into the group of Christians you mention trying to make positive use of Jesus material and hoping for Gods understanding of our limitations. I consider prosperity gospel heresy. I am not really familiar with 7 mountain thinking so looked at google and found only general observations about being an influence on all parts of society, nothing special about that but perhaps an especially negative approach to that infects the movement. (we are suppose to have power so it is ok to get it with force and ignoring Trump's immoral manipulation).

I am not sure what you were thinking with the wait 2000 years. I thought people would get heavenly reward after they die. I think there is a human project that is of great concern to us and God that is not just individuals being rewarded. I spoke of long term for that. That long term project of God establishing justice and the kingdom of God on earth is the concern of apocalyptic prophets. You point out urgency, "I did not come for peace but long to set the torch now" (approximate quote). It is possible to see this as having been done by his actions and urgency even if the changes related to Jesus effort are long in growing.

I looked again for the teaching that disciple must sell all. I find that the story of a particular rich man who inquired of Jesus is found in Matthew Mark and Luke. Luke has a couple of Jesus quotes making a general instruction, if you are to be my disciple you must sell all. I see what you mean to question the limitation of the instruction. On the other hand Matthew Mark John and the epistles do not contain this instruction. I can see a general agreement negative about riches. II think this points to the same uncertainty about Jesus's thinking that I mentioned in the first post.

I find myself considering that the idea of selling all to follow Jesus has been taken literally and done by many people. The interest in monasticism in a variety of forms grew early and continues to this day. (I have stayed at a monastery for a short personal retreat a couple of times) Monasteries are normally considered a special calling for a few people. I could almost wonder if Luke is leaning on the tradition a bit to further monastic sympathies. i do not know any certainty about that. It is certainly possible that impracticality may have inclined much of the New Testament to tone down or sidestep the idea, also being uncertain as to whom it was meant to apply.

I must add, I think of the kingdom of God on earth as a society reflecting respect for all, encouraging the well being of all, and encouraging success and understanding for all. Sometimes the phrase gets associated with stuff not like this.

[Res Ipsa]

Thanks, Huck. Stepping out of the context of COJCOLDS accumulation of wealth, I think that belief in Jesus as God requires wrestling with some hard problems. Although I don’t pretend to have any expertise on the subject, apocalyptic Jewish preacher seem to me most consistent with the words attributed to him. The notion that his disciples would not get their reward in heaven until over 2000 years has passed doesn’t, in my opinion, fit with the feeling of urgency in his message. Drop everything, including your family, and follow me (whatever that means) isn’t sustainable for anything close to 2000 years.

I don’t consider Jesus divine, and I don’t claim to be a disciple or follower. That puts him in that large category of people I use as resources to help me be a good person. If I believed he was God? I imagine I’d try my best to follow what he taught to his disciples and simply trust him to know me and be my judge. That’s pretty much what I see Christians I’ve had these kind of discussions do in their daily lives.

What I tend to push back on is people who try to rationalize doing things that are contrary to Jesus’ words. Prosperity gospel preachers, for example. 7th Mountain Dominionist Type sects for another example.

I’m going to push back on your example of the rich man. That’s one of the most rationalized away of Jesus’ teachings. There is nothing in the text that indicates this was special teachings for one guy or a limited audience. What he said is consistent with the attitude he expresses about wealth and worldly riches throughout the gospels. I think it’s perfectly fine to have aspirational goals that one cannot meet. My objection is inventing rationalizations to validate the shortcomings as being Christlike.

I dunno if that’s an adequate response to your comments. If not, let me know and I’ll take another shot.

Thanks Res Ipsa for a thoughtful reply.

I find I must consider a couple of things. I generally fall into the group of Christians you mention trying to make positive use of Jesus material and hoping for Gods understanding of our limitations. I consider prosperity gospel heresy. I am not really familiar with 7 mountain thinking so looked at google and found only general observations about being an influence on all parts of society, nothing special about that but perhaps an especially negative approach to that infects the movement.(we are suppose to have power so it is ok to get it with force and ignoring Trump's immoral manipulation).

That's my bad. I should have stuck with Dominionist. I think 7 Mountains falls into that general category, but I could be wrong.

I am not sure what you were thinking with the wait 2000 years. I thought people would get heavenly reward after they die. I think there is a human project that is of great concern to us and God that is not just individuals being rewarded. I spoke of long term for that. That long term project of God establishing justice and the kingdom of God on earth is the concern of apocalyptic prophets. You point out urgency, "I did not come for peace but long to set the torch now" (approximate quote). It is possible to see this as having been done by his actions and urgency even if the changes related to Jesus effort are long in growing.

The 2000 years may also be my bad. I thought that, in orthodox Christianity, the heavenly reward came after the resurrection. But that may be only certain flavors of Christianity. I don't have any problem with your concept of a long term human project and the way apocalyptic prophets fit into that.

I looked again for the teaching that disciple must sell all. I find that the story of a particular rich man who inquired of Jesus is found in Matthew Mark and Luke. Luke has a couple of Jesus quotes making a general instruction, if you are to be my disciple you must sell all. I see what you mean to question the limitation of the instruction. On the other hand Matthew Mark John and the epistles do not contain this instruction. I can see a general agreement negative about riches. I think this points to the same uncertainty about Jesus's thinking that I mentioned in the first post.

I find myself considering that the idea of selling all to follow Jesus has been taken literally and done by many people. The interest in monasticism in a variety of forms grew early and continues to this day. (I have stayed at a monastery for a short personal retreat a couple of times) Monasteries are normally considered a special calling for a few people. I could almost wonder if Luke is leaning on the tradition a bit to further monastic sympathies. i do not know any certainty about that. It is certainly possible that impracticality may have inclined much of the New Testament to tone down or sidestep the idea, also being uncertain as to whom it was meant to apply.

Interesting bit about the monastery. I'm thinking about trying a retreat after I retire. And you're right, there are many people who have eschewed wealth and devoted themselves to service of their God. I'm not sure how common that is today, at least in the U.S. I have a friend who is Catholic, and she talked about how nuns were kind of aging out with few young replacements. Nuns do a ton of service work that is often out of site unless one looks for it.

When it comes to accumulation of wealth and the gospels, it sounds like we're pretty much on the same page.

I must add , I think of the kingdom of God on earth as a society reflecting respect for all, encouraging the well being of all, and encouraging success and understanding for all. Sometimes the phrase gets associated with stuff not like this.

Amen.