Can Atheists appreciate Johann Sebastian Bach?

[Gadianton]

: it may be that you never even got as far as Debussy,

Predictably, no mention of Debussy at Sic et Non. (Debussy criticized Beethoven and no crystal clear separation between top and bottom hand)

If Wagner had been given a copy of the Book of Mormon, would he have signed up? And if he had, would it have destroyed his creative talents?

To the extent that Wagner was drawn to Nazism, he arguably was open to Mormonism, and so who knows? And yes, It would have destroyed his creative talents.

Schoenberg meets all the implicit qualifications that one could ask for: Western European; Wagnerian; educated; possessing a solid, German-sounding name; and dead. And since no one really understands him, he'd be an excellent name to drop.

Yeah, why waste an entire third of your palette? Look, Dan isn't ready for this discussion. What I see though, is that he's got Schubert on his list, but Schubert isn't very accessible is he? Would you listen to Schubert on a lazy Saturday afternoon? And so his inclusion must be ideological. I don't believe for a second that Dan kicks back and listens to Schubert. Bach; sure, who doesn't.

I have an aesthetic philosopher friend who has amassed a considerable amount of time learning to understand and appreciate Schoenberg. But every time he tortures me with one of his compositions, I find that I need to go home and cleanse my palate with a little Merle Haggard.

That's very interesting. Your friend is definitely welcome to post here. I've studied Schonberg a little as he was quite the theorist. How did he fit in with philosophy of his time, is he on the same track as Wittgenstein in terms of breaking with conventions? Are there deep relationships between philosophy, music, art, and science in modernism or just superficial nonsense? I've definitely seen the latter, but it is an interesting question.

If it wouldn't be imposing too much, I'd be interested in your friend's opinion regarding the accessibility of Wagner vs. Shostakovich -- if you wouldn't mind asking and relaying the answer should your friend be inclined to answer. Of course, no problem if this is not an appropriate request.

Despite Wagner's familiarity as a name, I don't think Wagner is anywhere near accessible as Bach. I don't think Shostakovich is too difficult, there are no good reasons for the Proprietor's aesthetic gaps aside from "crusted over tastes" or ideology -- Christian or fascist identity vs. anything else.

[Doctor Scratch]

But I think there are more interesting questions that one might ask. For example, how many of these composers would have converted to Mormonism, if given the opportunity? I know that, in the mind of the Mopologists, the answer is, "All of them, because every knee will bend in the last days," etc., but that's not what I'm asking. I am wondering: how many of them would have joined during their lifetimes? If Wagner had been given a copy of the Book of Mormon, would he have signed up? And if he had, would it have destroyed his creative talents?

My God, I would hope he would have joined.

The only way Wagner’s Der Ring des Nibelungen could have been better would have been to reimagine it based around Book of Mormon characters.

That’s a fascinating suggestion, Morley. But I’m not sure I see where the music would line up. For example, what would go with the most famous piece—“Ride of the Valkyries”? “Bobbing of the Jaredite Barges”? And I can’t think of anything in the Book of Mormon that would pair with the tragic majesty of “Siegfried’s Funeral March.” “Moroni’s Slow Trek from Playa del Carmen to Upstate New York,” I guess?

[Doctor Scratch]

Yeah, why waste an entire third of your palette? Look, Dan isn't ready for this discussion. What I see though, is that he's got Schubert on his list, but Schubert isn't very accessible is he? Would you listen to Schubert on a lazy Saturday afternoon? And so his inclusion must be ideological. I don't believe for a second that Dan kicks back and listens to Schubert. Bach; sure, who doesn't.

I bet he’s fond of Schubert’s “Unfinished” symphony. Not because he thinks it’s great music necessarily, or because his “Oxford Guide to Classical Music” told him he’s supposed to like it, but because it was the theme song for Gargamel—the bumbling pilgarlic villain from the 1980s animated series, The Smurfs. I mean, there are all sorts of reasons why culturally retrograde Mormons would have been into the Smurfs. For one thing, they offer up a benign alternative to using foul language (“I just smurfed the smurf out of my finger!!”). For another, it’s hard to overlook the gender dynamics, with the white-bearded Papa Smurf lording over “the kingdom,” which appears to be an almost 100% patriarchal society, save for the notable example of Smurfette.

Despite Wagner's familiarity as a name, I don't think Wagner is anywhere near accessible as Bach. I don't think Shostakovich is too difficult, there are no good reasons for the Proprietor's aesthetic gaps aside from "crusted over tastes" or ideology -- Christian or fascist identity vs. anything else.

It’s as if the 20th Century never happened. Where is Strauss? Prokofiev? Stravinsky? Bartok? Gershwin? Penderecki? Ligeti?

[Gadianton]

It’s as if the 20th Century never happened. Where is Strauss? Prokofiev? Stravinsky? Bartok? Gershwin? Penderecki? Ligeti?

No modern classical mentions at all to my knowledge. He must only go to the symphony around Christmas and Easter when they break out the traditional stuff. Otherwise, for someone so "cultured" it would be tough to avoid. Yuja Wang, highest paid pianist in the world, sells out concerts left and right significantly performing the works of these great Russian composers. But Dan, he's got no idea what's going on outside of MoTab and the occasional Christmas festival performed by Philharmonic.

No Joseph Schwantner, Elliot Carter, Aaron Copland etc. either if he's so worried about possible associations with communism.

I remember at the Y, I went to a student concert, and it was entirely experimental in terms of rhythms and tonality. Some real off-the-charts talent. I was totally blown away. Unfortunately, over half of the audience left within the first hour. And Some really rude comments were made after it was over. You could see the professor hosting it felt pretty bad. He'd even opened with a prayer. Perfect example of Mormonism poisoning music. Of course Mormons aren't prepared to be the least bit open-minded when it comes to music because the only role for music is manipulation and propaganda. So it's not just pop and rock being questionable as a Mormon, but anything considered serious composition likewise has no appreciation. Mormons are only encouraged to study a narrow slice of what's out there. And filled with "intellectuals" like our friend who intend to reinforce those boundaries.

[Moksha]

The only way Wagner’s Der Ring des Nibelungen could have been better would have been to reimagine it based around Book of Mormon characters.

That would be wonderful. Joseph Smith enters stage left to the sound of Ride of the Valkyries while holding the seer stone. He could sit at a desk and seemingly enter sleep, while the Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairies began and various Book of Mormon characters pranced onto the stage.

[malkie]

Yeah, why waste an entire third of your palette? Look, Dan isn't ready for this discussion. What I see though, is that he's got Schubert on his list, but Schubert isn't very accessible is he? Would you listen to Schubert on a lazy Saturday afternoon? And so his inclusion must be ideological. I don't believe for a second that Dan kicks back and listens to Schubert. Bach; sure, who doesn't.

I bet he’s fond of Schubert’s “Unfinished” symphony. Not because he thinks it’s great music necessarily, or because his “Oxford Guide to Classical Music” told him he’s supposed to like it, but because it was the theme song for Gargamel—the bumbling pilgarlic villain from the 1980s animated series, The Smurfs. I mean, there are all sorts of reasons why culturally retrograde Mormons would have been into the Smurfs. For one thing, they offer up a benign alternative to using foul language (“I just smurfed the smurf out of my finger!!”). For another, it’s hard to overlook the gender dynamics, with the white-bearded Papa Smurf lording over “the kingdom,” which appears to be an almost 100% patriarchal society, save for the notable example of Smurfette.

Despite Wagner's familiarity as a name, I don't think Wagner is anywhere near accessible as Bach. I don't think Shostakovich is too difficult, there are no good reasons for the Proprietor's aesthetic gaps aside from "crusted over tastes" or ideology -- Christian or fascist identity vs. anything else.

It’s as if the 20th Century never happened. Where is Strauss? Prokofiev? Stravinsky? Bartok? Gershwin? Penderecki? Ligeti?

I think I can see - as through a glass, darkly - within the comments of the two good doctors, some ideas for the next Interpreter movie.

I also wondered if perhaps the missing bars of the “Unfinished” symphony are to be discovered within the sealed portion of the plates. Pointing to god, of course.

Remember - you heard it first on discussmormonism.com

[I Have Questions]

Believers are prone to seeing their particular God’s hand in a variety of things. For instance, they will see their God’s hand in Bach, but they won’t see it in The Sex Pistols.

It had not crossed my mind to think of God being involved in the composition of the music. I was thinking Bach composed it. I do not see any reason to question Bach being the composer and his mind imagination skill and knowledge being the means.

Oh I left out the physical reality of the available musical instruments and what those devices were capable of doing. Then there is the skill traditions of people who play the instruments. These too would be critical components of the creation of new music.

I’m confused, where does your God play His part?

[Morley]

That's very interesting. Your friend is definitely welcome to post here. I've studied Schonberg a little as he was quite the theorist. How did he fit in with philosophy of his time, is he on the same track as Wittgenstein in terms of breaking with conventions? Are there deep relationships between philosophy, music, art, and science in modernism or just superficial nonsense? I've definitely seen the latter, but it is an interesting question.

Yes, he would say that there are deep relationships between the disciplines. I've no doubt that you and he could wax philosophical, deep into to the night, about art, philosophy, and music. On the other hand, since I'm just a studio artist, I'd be completely lost in the conversation and would have to go sit in a corner and draw a picture of a cow.

We all learn, in Survey of Art class, that art is defined by form, subject, and content. However, in the wake of the Impressionists, Formalists tried to redefine art (and especially painting) as primarily only about form (Ha! Hence the name formalist!). As theorists and practitioners struggled to figure the discipline out, we had Clement Greenberg, Schoenberg's buddy Wassily Kandinsky, Paul Klee, and Piet Mondrian all comparing art to music and philosophy; the German Expressionists shackling art to philosophy and Freud; and the Futurists bundling it with politics and science. Then, later, you've got a whole bunch of folks like Bruce Nauman and Joseph Beuys looking at art as mostly a process--the way a musical performance is a process. I could go on for pages, but I think you get the idea. Add to that the fact that contemporary art is almost impossible to understand without wading chest deep into post modernism.

If it wouldn't be imposing too much, I'd be interested in your friend's opinion regarding the accessibility of Wagner vs. Shostakovich -- if you wouldn't mind asking and relaying the answer should your friend be inclined to answer. Of course, no problem if this is not an appropriate request.

I'll ask when I see him this Fall. He'll probably love the question, though it'll floor him to hear it come tumbling out of my mouth.

Despite Wagner's familiarity as a name, I don't think Wagner is anywhere near accessible as Bach. I don't think Shostakovich is too difficult, there are no good reasons for the Proprietor's aesthetic gaps aside from "crusted over tastes" or ideology -- Christian or fascist identity vs. anything else.

I have no idea, and am resenting the fact that since you've mentioned Shostakovich so many times, I now have to go listen to him.

edit to add:

I need to add that I once mentioned to my mythical great friend, that for some reason, Kandinsky brought Spinoza to my mind. He got over-the-moon excited and hammered me about why that could possibly have been the case. I had to say that I had no answer other than that they both emphasize a kind of secular spirituality. He told me that he was currently rereading Spinoza with some informal study group and that he had been overwhelmed about how much mathematics and music were themes that Spinoza and Kandinsky both shared. I said, "Yeah, of course, umm, I noticed that, too." And then I went back to drawing my cow.

Edit 2:

I just now reread this and realized it sounds like I’m being sarcastic when I say I should just draw a cow. I assure you that I’m not. This isn’t my field and I am vastly outclassed by so many around me. I’m lucky to have been tutored by a few of them.

[Morley]

My God, I would hope he would have joined.

The only way Wagner’s Der Ring des Nibelungen could have been better would have been to reimagine it based around Book of Mormon characters.

That’s a fascinating suggestion, Morley. But I’m not sure I see where the music would line up. For example, what would go with the most famous piece—“Ride of the Valkyries”? “Bobbing of the Jaredite Barges”? And I can’t think of anything in the Book of Mormon that would pair with the tragic majesty of “Siegfried’s Funeral March.” “Moroni’s Slow Trek from Playa del Carmen to Upstate New York,” I guess?

You and Moksha are right. The opera would have had to be based on Joseph Smith's Nauvoo. The aftermath of the banking crisis, the selling of swampland, the not-yet-fifteen year-old girls, the destruction of the printing press, an angel with a hot sword, the whistling and whittling brigade, the extermination order, marrying of other men's wives, the poisoning of Joseph's coffee, his primping in a general's costume, and, of course, his noble martyrdom. Wagner could redo the whole Manti Mormon Miracle Pagaent. It would be something all could cherish.

[huckelberry]

I think Morley creates an aesthetic and meaningful image portraying himself going off in the corner to draw a cow.

But I share his studio preference and caution about art mathematical music theory.

Well I am guilty of enjoying talking a bit about the subject.