African Book of Mormon translations starting to remove “skin of blackness” and other racist phraseology

[Kishkumen]

I take it that's what you're doing. At least I know how to read, my dear Professor Severus Snape.

And it's only two words! My Google God said so.

So, take that.

If it is your take on reality, then yes.

[Morley]

I take it that's what you're doing. At least I know how to read, my dear Professor Severus Snape.

And it's only two words! My Google God said so.

So, take that.

: lol:

If it is your take on reality, then yes.

You're right to mention this, Kish. Word for word, metaphorical language often doesn't translate very well.

When you give someone an over-the-top compliment in Farsi, you'll often get a response that translates as "Oh, you're just putting watermelons under my arms." In Farsi, it makes perfect sense. The English version, not so much.

[Kishkumen]

You're right to mention this, Kish.

When you give someone an over-the-top compliment in Farsi, you'll often get a response that translates as "Oh, you're just putting watermelons under my arms." In Farsi, it makes perfect sense. The English version, not so much.

Thanks for sharing this, Morley. One of my friends once shared an anecdote about a teenage Native American who was acting out. His grandfather went up to him and told him a story about a wolf that, to outsiders' perceptions, seemed to have little to do with the teenager's problem. The kid understood his grandfather's message and went away chastened. You gotta know to understand. If you aren't part of the in-group, you'll miss the message. We are actually in that position with the Book of Mormon itself. Maybe not as badly as is the case with foreign languages and different cultures, but the historical and cultural differences are sufficient to be challenging to the best readers.

[Shulem]

If it is your take on reality, then yes.

Look, I asked Google, "How do you say black blindness in Chichewa?" The answer was: "khungu lakuda"

Again, from the Church website:

Ndipo adachititsa thembelero kufikira kwa iwo, inde, angakhale thembelero lowawa chifukwa cha mphulupulu zawo. Pakuti taonani, iwo adalimbitsa mitima yawo motsutsana naye, kufikira iwo adakhala ngati mwala; kotero, pamene iwo adali oyera ndi okongola kwambiri, ndi okondweretsa, kuti asakope anthu anga, Ambuye Mulungu adachititsa khungu lakuda kubwera pa iwo.

Let's check the online dictionary Chichewa to English and see what comes of it. Perhaps you can help interpret. I'm having some difficulty. The words blindness and skin are operative words in the dictionary definitions but lakuda doesn't pop up in the Chichewa dictionary but does in the Nyanja Dictionary: lakuda = black.

Chichewa to English:

khungu [HL] = khungu [HL] 1.blindness; kuchititsa khungu = causing blindness/ making blind; kuchita khungu (lit.: having blindness) = being blind; wachita khungu = he has become blind; khungu la usiku = night-blindness (nyctalopia); 2.ignorance; 3.disorder; 4.illiteracy;

khungu\makungu [LH] = 1.skin; khungu la munthu = the skin of a person; khungu la mphere = scabies; khungu lofiira la matenda = reddish sick-looking skin (albino skin); khungu lokhala ndi chipsela = skin with scars; khungu louma = horny\ dry skin (callus); khungu la mmanja = the skin of the hand (palm); khungu la ku mutu = the skin of the head (scalp); 2.epidermis; 3.pelt; 4.cornea (khungu la m’maso); 5.zest (khungu la malalanje); 6.ice on top of water;

lakuda = No results found, sorry. Please try again by filling in only the stem or the root of your search word, i.e. remove prefixes and suffixes.

English to Chichewa:

blackness = 1.chokuda; 2.madedwe

blindness = (word b.) onani: alexia

blindness = 1.khungu la maso; Jesus healed a blind man = Yesu anachiritsa munthu Washington khungu; 2.ukhungu; 3.maso opunduka; 4.kusaona; 5.kukhala wosaona; 6.chilema chosawona; 7.ng’ala; 8.zokandakanda (river blindness/ onchocerciasis)


Could it be that the online dictionary that renders "black blindness" is the wrong definition for the Mormon verse in question and "black skin" is the correct translation? Thus, is the initial reading wrong? That's all I want to know! If so, then I eat crow!

I'm trying to be honest about all this.

[Shulem]

You're right to mention this, Kish. Word for word, metaphorical language often doesn't translate very well.

When you give someone an over-the-top compliment in Farsi, you'll often get a response that translates as "Oh, you're just putting watermelons under my arms." In Farsi, it makes perfect sense. The English version, not so much.

I'm working on trying to get to the bottom of this. It's a process, as you know.

[Kishkumen]

I know what I am about to say will fall flat with some people here, but I will repeat what I have said here many, many times in the past.

Translation is a tricky business that requires a whole lot of knowledge about the languages, cultures, and histories involved. If you think consulting a dictionary is enough, you are wrong.

[Shulem]

I know what I am about to say will fall flat with some people here, but I will repeat what I have said here many, many times in the past.

Translation is a tricky business that requires a whole lot of knowledge about the languages, cultures, and histories involved. If you think consulting a dictionary is enough, you are wrong.

Well, okay, then. That sounds fair. But as you know, it's a good place to start. And then take it from there....

[Kishkumen]

Well, okay, then. That sounds fair. But as you know, it's a good place to start. And then take it from there....

Yep. Always check the dictionaries. The more in-depth the dictionary the better. Oxford English Dictionary for English, for example.

[Equality]

You're right to mention this, Kish. Word for word, metaphorical language often doesn't translate very well.

When you give someone an over-the-top compliment in Farsi, you'll often get a response that translates as "Oh, you're just putting watermelons under my arms." In Farsi, it makes perfect sense. The English version, not so much.

I'm working on trying to get to the bottom of this. It's a process, as you know.

I think to get to the bottom of this we really need to know what the exact Reformed Egyptian characters were on the plates that were translated to "skin of blackness" by Joseph Smith but later translated by an unknown church bureaucrat as "black blindness."

How have other documents in Reformed Egyptian using those same characters been translated into Chichewa and English?

Unfortunately...

But one thing we do know for sure: "black blindness" and "skin of blackness" are not at all the same. Translating "skin of blackness" into a Chichewa phrase that means "black blindness" is, inarguably, an act of deception on the part of whoever did it. As is the church's refusal to correct the error in translation after it has been pointed out to them.

If only we had an Oxford Reformed Egyptian dictionary.

[I Have Questions]

I know what I am about to say will fall flat with some people here, but I will repeat what I have said here many, many times in the past.

Translation is a tricky business that requires a whole lot of knowledge about the languages, cultures, and histories involved. If you think consulting a dictionary is enough, you are wrong.

I concur with that. I’d also say there’s a difference between the Church choosing to leave out passages in a selections based Book of Mormon “lite”, and the Church allowing a translation that misleads the reader into thinking the reference about skin colour was something entirely different. I know the church is doing the former, but is there evidence of it doing the latter?