Fairmormon's T. I. T. S.

[Mixman76]

Welcome Mixman. I hope you enjoy being here.

What do you think about the response you received?

I think he deflected my response and then shifted the conversation to make me look like I didn't even watch them. I find it gross that he thinks the videos are doing good to the youth of the church. If teaching them to be mean spirited and bullying towards other who don't think like them is "helping youth" the church has more problems than I thought. I also notice that absolute belief that the CES letter is all lies, which I can refute. But he doesn't seem to want to hear about that. Also I really don't like his example of using Jesus' actions of calling "people liars, hypocrites, vipers, whited sepulchurs, and sported a whip to cleanse the temple." If we assume Jesus is who the church teaches he is, then HE has the authority to do that. His followers do NOT. Especially, non-sanctioned apologist of the church. His response to me is self-righteous and deflective.

[mentalgymnast]

However, I never liked shows like this where the presenters/actors are so falsely enthusiastic to the point of it being an obviously fake.

Same here.

Regards,
MG

[Kishkumen]

I think he deflected my response and then shifted the conversation to make me look like I didn't even watch them. I find it gross that he thinks the videos are doing good to the youth of the church. If teaching them to be mean spirited and bullying towards other who don't think like them is "helping youth" the church has more problems than I thought. I also notice that absolute belief that the CES letter is all lies, which I can refute. But he doesn't seem to want to hear about that. Also I really don't like his example of using Jesus' actions of calling "people liars, hypocrites, vipers, whited sepulchurs, and sported a whip to cleanse the temple." If we assume Jesus is who the church teaches he is, then HE has the authority to do that. His followers do NOT. Especially, non-sanctioned apologist of the church. His response to me is self-righteous and deflective.

Many LDS apologists are masters at deflecting when others complain about what they are doing. They see it as your problem that you were offended. You were not the right audience. They feel confident that there is a receptive audience of young Zoomers that need these videos to prevent more of them from leaving the LDS Church. I would also say that these videos have a very alt-right, DezNat appeal to them.

[dastardly stem]

These videos give solid refutations of critical claims by the CES Letter. If youth dismiss the letter as a result, we believe that is a good result. Inasmuch Jeremy Runnels fabricated a narrative that the letter is the result of sincere questions (he mined the ex Mormon sub-reddit for his questions), we certainly think Jeremy and his opinions on the Church are worthy of dismissal by anyone, especially given his long antagonism against the Church.

Welcome Mixman and thanks for sharing this.

Who thinks these videos give solid refutations of critical claims by the CES Letter? I honestly haven't peaked at the Letter for a few years, soon after it hit the internet I had read it and did not recall seeing anything new or inventive in it.

I'd guess FAIR has seen some uptick in activity due to these videos and they are loving that perceived attention. I suppose there are likely quite a few young Mormons who just need to feel good about being Mormon.

Additionally it is so low brow to complain Jeremy "fabricated" questions because he found them while researching on the internet. It's something I've seen from the FAIR folks a lot, though. Where do they think people's questions come from? There's nothing underhanded about asking questions that others have asked.

It really just sounds like more and more FAIR is just losing to something as simple, it seems to me, as the CES Letter and has gotten desperate.

[Dr Moore]

If the CES Letter is to "moronic" for Satan, then why is FairMormon dedicating so much time toward juvenile (and at times, truly moronic) attempts at debunking it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmI9Ed3 ... FairMormon

[malkie]

These videos give solid refutations of critical claims by the CES Letter. If youth dismiss the letter as a result, we believe that is a good result. Inasmuch Jeremy Runnels fabricated a narrative that the letter is the result of sincere questions (he mined the ex Mormon sub-reddit for his questions), we certainly think Jeremy and his opinions on the Church are worthy of dismissal by anyone, especially given his long antagonism against the Church.

Welcome Mixman and thanks for sharing this.

Who thinks these videos give solid refutations of critical claims by the CES Letter? I honestly haven't peaked at the Letter for a few years, soon after it hit the internet I had read it and did not recall seeing anything new or inventive in it.

I'd guess FAIR has seen some uptick in activity due to these videos and they are loving that perceived attention. I suppose there are likely quite a few young Mormons who just need to feel good about being Mormon.

Additionally it is so low brow to complain Jeremy "fabricated" questions because he found them while researching on the internet. It's something I've seen from the FAIR folks a lot, though. Where do they think people's questions come from? There's nothing underhanded about asking questions that others have asked.

It really just sounds like more and more FAIR is just losing to something as simple, it seems to me, as the CES Letter and has gotten desperate.

They attacked the original CES letter for being amateurish - not up to their standard, I guess.

Then when the author made improvements, they attacked it for not being the straightforward letter that it started out as.

And still, after all this time, they find just 44% of the latest document to be errors or falsehoods.

And the idea that "his long antagonism against the Church" makes "his opinions on the Church ... worthy of dismissal by anyone" is about as stupid an argument as I can imagine.

[Mixman76]

Welcome Mixman and thanks for sharing this.

Who thinks these videos give solid refutations of critical claims by the CES Letter? I honestly haven't peaked at the Letter for a few years, soon after it hit the internet I had read it and did not recall seeing anything new or inventive in it.

I'd guess FAIR has seen some uptick in activity due to these videos and they are loving that perceived attention. I suppose there are likely quite a few young Mormons who just need to feel good about being Mormon.

Additionally it is so low brow to complain Jeremy "fabricated" questions because he found them while researching on the internet. It's something I've seen from the FAIR folks a lot, though. Where do they think people's questions come from? There's nothing underhanded about asking questions that others have asked.

It really just sounds like more and more FAIR is just losing to something as simple, it seems to me, as the CES Letter and has gotten desperate.

They attacked the original CES letter for being amateurish - not up to their standard, I guess.

Then when the author made improvements, they attacked it for not being the straightforward letter that it started out as.

And still, after all this time, they find just 44% of the latest document to be errors or falsehoods.

And the idea that "his long antagonism against the Church" makes "his opinions on the Church ... worthy of dismissal by anyone" is about as stupid an argument as I can imagine.

Yes, I agree that they set themselves up as a higher authoritative source of truth than others and use scholarly language to demean common folk such as myself and Jeremy. Though he is much more educated in all of this than I am of course.
Where can I find the information that 44% is in error or false? I'd really like to look into that. Please let me know.

[consiglieri]

RFM here!

Just wanted to pop in to welcome Mixman76 to the board.

In my past two RFM podcasts, I have publicly announced the existence of this board and suggested to my listeners that if they want to rub shoulders with some of the best informed and most articulate thinkers in post-Mormonism, this board is the place to be.

Glad to see some of my listeners accepting the invitation!

[malkie]

They attacked the original CES letter for being amateurish - not up to their standard, I guess.

Then when the author made improvements, they attacked it for not being the straightforward letter that it started out as.

And still, after all this time, they find just 44% of the latest document to be errors or falsehoods.

And the idea that "his long antagonism against the Church" makes "his opinions on the Church ... worthy of dismissal by anyone" is about as stupid an argument as I can imagine.

Yes, I agree that they set themselves up as a higher authoritative source of truth than others and use scholarly language to demean common folk such as myself and Jeremy. Though he is much more educated in all of this than I am of course.
Where can I find the information that 44% is in error or false? I'd really like to look into that. Please let me know.

Look at https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Crit ... S_Director

If you scroll down a couple of pages you'll se a graphic with the following stats:

• Fact 16%
• Spin 40%
• Mistakes/Errors 33%
• Falsehoods 11%

Since the categories are (I hope!) exhaustive and mutually exclusive, I take "Spin" to mean that they are unwilling to concede the items as fact, but are unable to prove that they are mistakes or falsehoods. I expect that they give themselves the benefit of any doubt that there may be.

in my opinion, that's pretty damning - the best minds of FAIRMormon have been working on this for years, and this is the best they can do?

[consiglieri]

Also I just announced on my RFM Facebook page Professor Peterson's public self-exoneration from having anything to do with T.I.T.S.

This stuff writes itself.