Missionary Numbers plummet

[IHAQ]

Lower missionary #s for 2020 isn't too surprising. I recall being told at one point last summer that missionaries who had completed >1 years of service, were allowed to go home early and honorably. So it will take some time to work through that comparable.

Missionary counts exiting 2021 and at mid 2022 will be most telling.

I think you are right. The 2019 number was the first to show a slight increase year on year since the age reduction bubble seen under Monson. Had Covid not happened I'd have expected to see something like 69,000 - 70,000 missionaries for 2020. That's still very awkward for Holland.

[mentalgymnast]

For that to be true you would also have to hold one person accountable for these deaths (2019 stats). Do you hold God responsible for these deaths?

Heart disease: 659,041
Cancer: 599,601
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 173,040
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 156,979
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,005
Alzheimer’s disease: 121,499
Diabetes: 87,647
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 51,565
Influenza and Pneumonia: 49,783
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,511

So in 2019 we had, in the United States:

Number of deaths: 2,854,838
Death rate: 869.7 deaths per 100,000 population

People die. It’s a fact of life. This pandemic has been horrific. But to hold Pres. Nelson accountable for these deaths is just plain silly. Yes, he called on believers to petition God for relief. That relief is coming. albeit slower than we would like. Much of it due to common sense and science. I wouldn’t hesitate to suggest that along the way there have been miracles.

Oh ye of little faith.

Regards,
MG

This is all very interesting, MG. I'd be curious on your thoughts regarding the point raised--the Church projected near twice as many missionaries as there are today, just 5 or 6 years ago. I get the pandemic threw them for a loop, but even the year before they were far lower in terms of number of missionaries than they had projected. I would suggest something went wrong for such a miscalculation. I mean severely wrong. How could they have been that far off?

As it is the failed projection fits really well with the no God behind this position. It doesn't fit well with a God is behind it and speaking to the brethren position. we can look at the data and draw out expectations.

But since it was brought up....why are you on the defensive with regards to the pandemic? Are you saying without the saints, and others who might have joined, fasting on two occasions last year, there would be no relief coming for the pandemic? That'd be quite a claim. Are you basing that conclusion on your faith? The Pandemic and how it's played out fits snuggly with a no God position. I don't see how it fits well with a God. You seem to be saying if one just believes in God then you know there must have been miracles associated with the pandemic and God responded well to the saints offering a fast. You seem intent to chide people who lack faith, but it appears you are full of superstition or gullibility or both and are displaying your faith is but one of those. Why should anyone be superstitious as you describe, or why should anyone be gullible?

It becomes rather apparent rather fast that God can either be ‘in’ the picture or ‘out’ of the picture. Remember the story of David Patten?

https://www.mormoninfo.org/false-prophe ... ld-go-3679

What gives? Why did Patten die when he was supposed to stick around?

Another:

According to Joseph Knight, Alvin Smith was to accompany Joseph to the Hill Cumorah to retrieve the plates. Didn’t happen because Alvin died.

Brother Knight tells how Joseph first went to the hill but was denied the record because of carelessness: “Joseph says, ‘When can I have it?’ The answer was the 22nd day of September next if you bring the right person with you. Joseph says, ‘Who is the right person?’ The answer was ‘Your oldest brother.’ But before September came his oldest brother died.” Two later reports tell similar stories, basically repeating the Chase affidavit.

Within the Christian tradition we have this explanation trying to explain the anachronisms and failures in revelation/prophecy:

https://www.christiantruthcenter.com/types-of-prophecy/

So we have conditional vs. unconditional revelation as a ‘fail safe’ mechanism to act as a buffer against situations that seem to show what appears to be a failure of God to correctly read the tea leaves.

We live in a world of ambiguity where we would like to think things ought to be more predictable. Especially when God is supposedly entering the picture and saying one thing or another. Now how this ambiguity and ‘change in fortune’ occurs within the framework of prophesy and seer-ship I have no idea. God is supposed to know the end from the beginning and all that omniscient stuff, right? So when we get into this area, such as you describe in your post, of a God not being readily apparent, I can’t give you a ready made answer...that supports God’s presence/intervention...that doesn’t have cracks in it.

Unconditional vs. conditional revelation seems to be prone to a similar tendency to crack under pressure.

So believers at certain junctures find themselves looking at the larger picture and contexts, then trust that God is ultimately at the helm even when the boat seems to have an uneven keel. It comes back around to trying to fit together the micro with the macro. From our view and perspective I don’t know that it is reasonable to think that we can see the whole picture at panoramic scale. Our viewfinders are constructed of lenses and settings that don’t allow us to readily make that transition from micro to macro.

And it’s the micro that often causes cognitive dissonance and misunderstandings.

We are so finite. I’m always willing to give a creator/God the benefit of a doubt that He is much closer to infinite knowledge than I am.

Now there’s the understatement of the day.

Regards,
MG

[Shulem]

Volunteers for full time missionary service will continue to slide downward. There are just too many freedoms boys today are enjoying that they are not wanting to give up. I'm not just talking about masturbation although that's at least half of it. The free use of Internet and pleasures had through various forms of cyber technology will make it too irresistible to give up.

I have a prediction through my trusty crystal ball. I predict the Church will tap into those secret rainy day funds to provide necessary funding for future missionary service. No longer will missionaries have to pay for their missions. Just show up and do what you're told. The Church will pay all expenses!

Eureka!

The numbers will then go up.

[dastardly stem]

This is all very interesting, MG. I'd be curious on your thoughts regarding the point raised--the Church projected near twice as many missionaries as there are today, just 5 or 6 years ago. I get the pandemic threw them for a loop, but even the year before they were far lower in terms of number of missionaries than they had projected. I would suggest something went wrong for such a miscalculation. I mean severely wrong. How could they have been that far off?

As it is the failed projection fits really well with the no God behind this position. It doesn't fit well with a God is behind it and speaking to the brethren position. we can look at the data and draw out expectations.

But since it was brought up....why are you on the defensive with regards to the pandemic? Are you saying without the saints, and others who might have joined, fasting on two occasions last year, there would be no relief coming for the pandemic? That'd be quite a claim. Are you basing that conclusion on your faith? The Pandemic and how it's played out fits snuggly with a no God position. I don't see how it fits well with a God. You seem to be saying if one just believes in God then you know there must have been miracles associated with the pandemic and God responded well to the saints offering a fast. You seem intent to chide people who lack faith, but it appears you are full of superstition or gullibility or both and are displaying your faith is but one of those. Why should anyone be superstitious as you describe, or why should anyone be gullible?

It becomes rather apparent rather fast that God can either be ‘in’ the picture or ‘out’ of the picture. Remember the story of David Patten?

https://www.mormoninfo.org/false-prophe ... ld-go-3679

What gives? Why did Patten die when he was supposed to stick around?

Another:

According to Joseph Knight, Alvin Smith was to accompany Joseph to the Hill Cumorah to retrieve the plates. Didn’t happen because Alvin died.

Brother Knight tells how Joseph first went to the hill but was denied the record because of carelessness: “Joseph says, ‘When can I have it?’ The answer was the 22nd day of September next if you bring the right person with you. Joseph says, ‘Who is the right person?’ The answer was ‘Your oldest brother.’ But before September came his oldest brother died.” Two later reports tell similar stories, basically repeating the Chase affidavit.

Within the Christian tradition we have this explanation trying to explain the anachronisms and failures in revelation/prophecy:

https://www.christiantruthcenter.com/types-of-prophecy/

So we have conditional vs. unconditional revelation as a ‘fail safe’ mechanism to act as a buffer against situations that seem to show what appears to be a failure of God to correctly read the tea leaves.

We live in a world of ambiguity where we would like to think things ought to be more predictable. Especially when God is supposedly entering the picture and saying one thing or another. Now how this ambiguity and ‘change in fortune’ occurs within the framework of prophesy and seer-ship I have no idea. God is supposed to know the end from the beginning and all that omniscient stuff, right? So when we get into this area, such as you describe in your post, of a God not being readily apparent, I can’t give you a ready made answer...that supports God’s presence/intervention...that doesn’t have cracks in it.

Unconditional vs. conditional revelation seems to be prone to a similar tendency to crack under pressure.

So believers at certain junctures find themselves looking at the larger picture and contexts, then trust that God is ultimately at the helm even when the boat seems to have an uneven keel. It comes back around to trying to fit together the micro with the macro. From our view and perspective I don’t know that it is reasonable to think that we can see the whole picture at panoramic scale. Our viewfinders are constructed of lenses and settings that don’t allow us to readily make that transition from micro to macro.

And it’s the micro that often causes cognitive dissonance and misunderstandings.

We are so finite. I’m always willing to give a creator/God the benefit of a doubt that He is much closer to infinite knowledge than I am.

Now there’s the understatement of the day.

Regards,
MG

Ok. So I guess the point remains, whether there's a god or not, everything works out the same. So again, I'd wonder what's the benefit of this superstitious and gullible faith, as you've defined it? I mean, seriously, faith is supposed to be the highest of virtues, but it feels like an obvious vice to me.

[Shulem]

I mean, seriously, faith is supposed to be the highest of virtues, but it feels like an obvious vice to me.

Faith in the deceptive religion of Mormonism and Mormon Man-god is not a virtue but a weakness. Faith in Mormonism is like disease and robs those who live by it. The soul who places their faith in this awful religion are missing out on so much more that life has to offer.

Faith in Joseph Smith = Bad
Faith in Mormon Jesus = Bad
Faith in Mormon prophet = Bad

It's a form of spiritual bondage and retards the soul.

[mentalgymnast]

It becomes rather apparent rather fast that God can either be ‘in’ the picture or ‘out’ of the picture. Remember the story of David Patten?

https://www.mormoninfo.org/false-prophe ... ld-go-3679

What gives? Why did Patten die when he was supposed to stick around?

Another:

According to Joseph Knight, Alvin Smith was to accompany Joseph to the Hill Cumorah to retrieve the plates. Didn’t happen because Alvin died.



Within the Christian tradition we have this explanation trying to explain the anachronisms and failures in revelation/prophecy:

https://www.christiantruthcenter.com/types-of-prophecy/

So we have conditional vs. unconditional revelation as a ‘fail safe’ mechanism to act as a buffer against situations that seem to show what appears to be a failure of God to correctly read the tea leaves.

We live in a world of ambiguity where we would like to think things ought to be more predictable. Especially when God is supposedly entering the picture and saying one thing or another. Now how this ambiguity and ‘change in fortune’ occurs within the framework of prophesy and seer-ship I have no idea. God is supposed to know the end from the beginning and all that omniscient stuff, right? So when we get into this area, such as you describe in your post, of a God not being readily apparent, I can’t give you a ready made answer...that supports God’s presence/intervention...that doesn’t have cracks in it.

Unconditional vs. conditional revelation seems to be prone to a similar tendency to crack under pressure.

So believers at certain junctures find themselves looking at the larger picture and contexts, then trust that God is ultimately at the helm even when the boat seems to have an uneven keel. It comes back around to trying to fit together the micro with the macro. From our view and perspective I don’t know that it is reasonable to think that we can see the whole picture at panoramic scale. Our viewfinders are constructed of lenses and settings that don’t allow us to readily make that transition from micro to macro.

And it’s the micro that often causes cognitive dissonance and misunderstandings.

We are so finite. I’m always willing to give a creator/God the benefit of a doubt that He is much closer to infinite knowledge than I am.

Now there’s the understatement of the day.

Regards,
MG

Ok. So I guess the point remains, whether there's a god or not, everything works out the same.

That’s very difficult to say.

So again, I'd wonder what's the benefit of this superstitious and gullible faith, as you've defined it? I mean, seriously, faith is supposed to be the highest of virtues, but it feels like an obvious vice to me.

Not if it’s true.

Regards,
MG

[Shulem]

So again, I'd wonder what's the benefit of this superstitious and gullible faith, as you've defined it? I mean, seriously, faith is supposed to be the highest of virtues, but it feels like an obvious vice to me.

Not if it’s true.

Regards,
MG

The Latter-day Saints in Nauvoo had what some might consider a superstitious and gullible faith in Smith who claimed to have correctly interpreted and translated the persons and hieroglyphic text of Facsimile No. 3. I mean, seriously, their faith in Smith's claim that a King's name was given in the characters above his head only fed Smith's vice for lying.

Isn't that right, MG? Or was Smith telling the truth? Prove it.

[Moksha]

Missionary numbers will decrease as more young people exit the Church, unless the Interpreter can exert some powerful thought and behavioral control over them. Turn them to the apologetic side.

[mentalgymnast]

Missionary numbers will decrease as more young people exit the Church, unless the Interpreter can exert some powerful thought and behavioral control over them. Turn them to the apologetic side.

I don’t think this is the key to young people developing a testimony. The basics are what are necessary. Scriptures, prayer, service, church attendance. Moving away from the Spirit and into the world is the real danger. The worldly influences can be overwhelming powerful if the shield of faith is set down in preference to relying wholly upon secular knowledge.

Regards,
MG

[Shulem]

I don’t think this is the key to young people developing a testimony. The basics are what are necessary. Scriptures, prayer, service, church attendance. Moving away from the Spirit and into the world is the real danger.

Regards,
MG

Young Mormon boys are masturbating and looking at porn in greater numbers than ever before. This will inevitably result in fewer boys applying to serve a mission. Young men today don't want to be told what they can and can't do with what's between their legs and bishops need to shut their mouths (no pun intended) when interviewing boys and asking them sexual questions.

Your Church is freaking evil, MG. Evil! The powers that be and world governments will combine to take it down and divide the spoils. In the end, Mormonism will be ripped apart like lions feasting on its prey.

Rest assured, the days of Mormonism are numbered.