God can write straight with crooked lines.

[MG 2.0]

Philosophers distinquish between "natural evil" and "moral evil"

All these philosophers are also white men. Is that bad? are you going to call me "woke" for saying it? WWWS?

Plantinga's free will defense moves the conversation to natural evil, as God and free will are both present, in his interpretation, in all possible worlds. It doesn't matter how much evil by humans, God shrugs and walks away saying 'cuz freewill. The argument makes more sense than it sounds like it would. But that doesn't cover 9.0 earthquakes that kill hundreds of thousands of people. That is fully on God. MG says, "what God should get rid of plate tectonics?" flippantly, because like usual he doesn't take time to appreciate the problem. The answer is "yes" he should, otherwise he's evil. The only way out, really, is to suggest that earthquakes are caused by evil demons. We're back to the supernatural where everything is a result of moral agency. There is a way out unique to Mormons. Many Mormons believe that intelligence is fundamental to all matter in the universe, and that God doesn't use physics in the normal sense, but rather expresses his will to the intelligent counterpart to matter, which obeys him. I grew up hearing more exotic versions of this idea. My mom used to say that even the earth has a spirit. So in some versions of this, God doesn't have to talk every individual atom into what he wants but might speak with the emergent clumps, like planets. But planets still have free agency. So the earth "groans" because it's offended by all the sin done by humans and causes earthquakes. The earth isn't so much evil, as it's like an animal responding to pain.

To be clear, I wasn't trying to be flippant when suggesting that techtonic plates and earthquakes are directly responsible for the death and destruction of many people throughout history. The problem you would run into if you take techtonic plates, and resulting earthquakes, away from earth's geological system is that we would not even be having this conversation. Techtonic plates are essential to the earth's operations as we know it.

So weighing in the balance, which would you rather have? Death and destruction here and there...or humans not existing at all on this pale blue dot?

This is just another example of God's ways...nature and all that is in it...traveling along in crooked and often fractal patterns which result in a world in which opposites exist and we are able to act according to our agency/will.

Unless, that is, and/or until nature takes its course and takes us out either sooner or later. Those of us having this conversation are still here and traveling that crooked path with hopes of straightening things out before we're taken out.

The pattern of our lives may travel a very simple 'fractal' of straight yet crooked lines or a more complex pattern. But it's a pattern, nonetheless.

God can write straight with crooked lines. Especially as He sees the end from the beginning. We are short-sighted (death through the effects of the natural world being "bad", for example), however, God has the full view of the fractal nature of things and how it all comes together to make a beautiful design.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

The fractal metaphor is appealing, and I get why it resonates. Romans 8 and Ecclesiastes paint a different picture though. Creation isn’t portrayed as an eye pleasing fractal so much as it is fractured, groaning while it waits for redemption.

As I've tried to catch up with this thread since getting back home I started thinking a bit about how all of this might relate to fractal geometry. Thus, my last few posts.

As far as the deeper relationships this train of thought might have to the other tracks this thread has explored I would leave to greater minds than mine.

Fractal geometry and crooked lines fit together to make a pattern that leads/results to something 'straighter' than before...a part of Tolkien's world?

Just throwing stuff out there. Some of these ideas seem, for me, to correlate with the LDS theology of opposition resulting in choices that lead to righteousness. And that's more or less surface level.

Others might see some deeper correlations/ meaning.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

...Fractal geometry and crooked lines fit together to make a pattern that leads/results to something 'straighter' than before...

No. They. Don't. Mentalgymnast is misusing yet another concept and forcing it into his descriptions of how his god works.

...Just throwing stuff out there...

Clearly. His oscillation example was another misuse of concepts (he failed to note that the x-axis was time which lead to another crooked-to-straight misnomer) but this one is a doozy.

My guess is mg picked up on some description of fractals being found in chaos theory discussions, so he thinks it helps his 'god's bigger picture' idea, but his further insistence that fractal shapes describe 'crookedness' being made 'straight' across time or space is so wrong it's not even wrong.

...Some of these ideas seem, for me, to correlate with the LDS theology of opposition resulting in choices that lead to righteousness. And that's more or less surface level...

Mentalgymnast would do better if he just discussed the 'surface level' ideas he has. His mangling of mathematical and philosophical concepts in this thread is obtuse at best.

[MG 2.0]

There have been some responses on this thread by two posters that do not lend any real substance to the discussion. They are only meant to introduce rancor and move the thread towards backbiting and personal insults. I would invite other posters to not be swayed or influenced in that direction. As it is, most of the thread has led to some interesting discussion. Everyone's comments should be welcome to the extent that they are at least considered and even built upon...rather than simply knocked down.

I think introducing fractal geometry into the equation might be interesting. Rather than simply criticizing (talking here to a couple of posters), why not approach things in a civil manner and introduce your own thoughts and ideas into the discussion? Limnor, even though having expressed earlier a "distrust" in me as a person (oh well) has not let that personal prejudice limit him from looking at ideas and concepts. That, in turn, builds on the discussion rather than take away.

If I respond to gadianton and find what I think is a hole in his argument at its very foundation, that shouldn't be reason to pile up on any one person...umm...particularly me. Not that this has happened specifically to my response to him, but other posters seemingly jump in to derail to take us away from what could be an interesting conversation and a healthy 'back and forth'.

Let's keep on topic rather than going the "all about MG" route.

Please.

Regards,
MG

P.S. I thought my introduction of using oscilloscope patterns in conjunction with the conversation was pretty cool! Gosh, it doesn't have to be an exact one to one match. Sheesh.

[I Have Questions]

There have been some responses on this thread by two posters that do not lend any real substance to the discussion. They are only meant to introduce rancor and move the thread towards backbiting and personal insults. I would invite other posters to not be swayed or influenced in that direction. As it is, most of the thread has led to some interesting discussion. Everyone's comments should be welcome to the extent that they are at least considered and even built upon...rather than simply knocked down.

I think introducing fractal geometry into the equation might be interesting. Rather than simply criticizing (talking here to a couple of posters), why not approach things in a civil manner and introduce your own thoughts and ideas into the discussion? Limnor, even though having expressed earlier a "distrust" in me as a person (oh well) has not let that personal prejudice limit him from looking at ideas and concepts. That, in turn, builds on the discussion rather than take away.

If I respond to gadianton and find what I think is a hole in his argument at its very foundation, that shouldn't be reason to pile up on any one person...umm...particularly me. Not that this has happened specifically to my response to him, but other posters seemingly jump in to derail to take us away from what could be an interesting conversation and a healthy 'back and forth'.

Let's keep on topic rather than going the "all about MG" route.

Please.

Regards,
MG

P.S. I thought my introduction of using oscilloscope patterns in conjunction with the conversation was pretty cool! Gosh, it doesn't have to be an exact one to one match. Sheesh.

TTOC

[I Have Questions]

MG’s position seems to be that the Sorites Paradox proves that fractal geology can explain how an undefined supernatural “entity” has created a pattern of involvement in this world which drives problems and challenges for people - like disease, or abuse, or financial ruin etc which is ultimately good for them in the end when that supernatural but undefined entity decides to “write straight” in some way. He has many many examples that prove his point, but won’t provide any.

Have I got that summation about right?

Meanwhile, a really good discussion is going on “sans” MG’s nonsense.

[I Have Questions]

Fractal geometry and crooked lines fit together to make a pattern that leads/results to something 'straighter' than before...a part of Tolkien's world?

Utter codswallop. Go back and read Philo’s patient explanation of why Tolkien’s world is not your “God uses crooked lines to write straight” world. You accused him of shooting himself in the foot. He did no such thing. You did. And now you’ve just started blasting away at your other leg! Hilarious!

[Marcus]

There have been some responses on this thread by two posters that do not lend any real substance to the discussion. They are only meant to introduce rancor and move the thread towards backbiting and personal insults. I would invite other posters to not be swayed or influenced in that direction. As it is, most of the thread has led to some interesting discussion. Everyone's comments should be welcome to the extent that they are at least considered and even built upon...rather than simply knocked down.

I think introducing fractal geometry into the equation might be interesting. Rather than simply criticizing (talking to a couple of posters), why not approach things in a civil manner and introduce your own thoughts and ideas into the discussion? Limnor, even though having expressed earlier a "distrust" in me as a person (oh well) has not let that personal prejudice limit him from looking at ideas and concepts. That, in turn, builds on the discussion rather than take away.

If I respond to gadianton and find what I think is a hole in his argument at its very foundation, that shouldn't be reason to pile up on any one person...umm...particularly me. Not that this has happened specifically to my response to him, but other posters seemingly jump in to derail to take us away from what could be an interesting conversation and a healthy 'back and forth'.

Let's keep on topic rather than going the "all about MG" route.

Please.

Regards,
MG

P.S. I thought my introduction of using oscilloscope patterns in conjunction with the conversation was pretty cool! Gosh, it doesn't have to be an exact one to one match. Sheesh.

This is an interesting post. It gives some insight into how mentalgymnast's ideas originate, but also how he turns conversations into talk about himself. If he wants to keep on topic, he can respond to my objections to his misstatements about fractal concepts.

Re the origin of his ideas, for example, he states this:

... P.S. I thought my introduction of using oscilloscope patterns in conjunction with the conversation was pretty cool! Gosh, it doesn't have to be an exact one to one match. Sheesh...

Of course not, that's built in to the definition of an analogy. I used to use the example of road maps when I was teaching about statistical modeling of economic policy. A map works not because it's a one-to-one model of the roads, but because it picks out the information pertinent to the needs of the person creating the map, or model. An analogy only works if the same process holds, key concepts must be in both.

Re this idea of key concepts I stated that mentalgymnast's "oscillation example was another misuse of concepts" because "he failed to note that the x-axis was time which lead to another crooked-to-straight misnomer."

I didn't post this as an example of a misuse of a concept because it wasn't a perfect match, but because mg's descriptions missed a vital point:

Think of a horizontal oscilloscope pattern with vertical amplitudes, up and down, contrasted with a horizontal/forward progress and movement leading in one direction. An example of crooked lines being made straight even though constantly wandering off of the horizontal XY axis.

No, it is not. Movements are plotted on the Y-axis, as they occur over time, which is the X-axis. This measurement is in no way is analogous to "crooked lines being made straight even though constantly wandering off..."

And this:

That which we see/understand after the crooked is manifest. Crooked is more present tense while macro is usually looking back. Earlier I had suggested looking at an oscilloscope pattern. Jagged/crooked lines up and down while traveling a straight line across the screen. The crooked path is leading 'somewhere'. That will vary from person to person.

No, it isn't leading somewhere. It's measuring over time, and it looks the same whether viewed in present tense or looking back. It's not time (which he loosely calls 'somewhere') that varies across persons, it's the y-axis data that varies. There is no reason to define it as 'crooked' not 'straight'.

[If] ...you've ever looked directly at the wave pattern on an oscilloscope it almost appears as thought the wave patterns are 'dancing in place' even though in reality they are in movement recording new information. Someone looking at it from a macro position in time/eternity would be able to make the 'read' and fine tune the adjustments in real time...from their perspective. That get's us into the area of a Supreme Being again...

Nothing about accurately reading oscilloscope data suggests a need for a god, actually or metaphorically. And the idea that post-measurement data can be fine-tuned to appear 'straight' sounds more like fraud, or, in a nod to malkie, "Satan's Plan."

Concepts can't just willy-nilly be used for analogies, especially not mathematical ones. I am critiquing mentalgymnast's comments, so here's to hoping he doesn't post another lengthy screed about himself and how this thread is not all about him.

[Limnor]

Limnor, even though having expressed earlier a "distrust" in me as a person (oh well) has not let that personal prejudice limit him from looking at ideas and concepts.

lol

[Limnor]

The fractal metaphor is appealing, and I get why it resonates. Romans 8 and Ecclesiastes paint a different picture though. Creation isn’t portrayed as an eye pleasing fractal so much as it is fractured, groaning while it waits for redemption.

As I've tried to catch up with this thread since getting back home I started thinking a bit about how all of this might relate to fractal geometry. Thus, my last few posts.

As far as the deeper relationships this train of thought might have to the other tracks this thread has explored I would leave to greater minds than mine.

Fractal geometry and crooked lines fit together to make a pattern that leads/results to something 'straighter' than before...a part of Tolkien's world?

Just throwing stuff out there. Some of these ideas seem, for me, to correlate with the LDS theology of opposition resulting in choices that lead to righteousness. And that's more or less surface level.

Others might see some deeper correlations/ meaning.

Regards,
MG

I think we may be working with different background stories. If creation was never truly broken by sin and death, then crooked lines can look straight I suppose. But Romans 8 assumes something has gone wrong at a fundamental level—creation is groaning under that brokenness and awaiting redemption, not evolving into something pure.