God can write straight with crooked lines.

[Limnor]

If he wants to keep on topic, he can respond to my objections to his misstatements about fractal concepts.

-snip-

Nothing about accurately reading oscilloscope data suggests a need for a god, actually or metaphorically. And the idea that post-measurement data can be fine-tuned to appear 'straight' sounds more like fraud, or, in a nod to malkie, "Satan's Plan."

MG—a gesture towards trust would include responding to these points.

If not that’s ok too—the conversation was going very well before fractals and oscilloscopes entered the chat.

[Marcus]

If he wants to keep on topic, he can respond to my objections to his misstatements about fractal concepts.

-snip-

Nothing about accurately reading oscilloscope data suggests a need for a god, actually or metaphorically. And the idea that post-measurement data can be fine-tuned to appear 'straight' sounds more like fraud, or, in a nod to malkie, "Satan's Plan."

MG—a gesture towards trust would include responding to these points.

If not that’s ok too—the conversation was going very well before fractals and oscilloscopes entered the chat.

Yes, it was, it's been a pleasure to read. That's why I objected to those two--they were being used so egregiously incorrectly, it was like his misuse of Sorites paradox all over again. I really don't see fractals and oscillating patterns, at least as mg understands them, having a place in this conversation, so I doubt very much he'll respond to your suggestion. That's why I mentioned chaos theory, going that direction at least has some concepts that might have a possibility of fitting in.

[Physics Guy]

An oscilloscope trace wobbles up and down a lot, but at the same time also steadily moves left to right. That’s an example of a crooked line that does nonetheless manage to go somewhere, but I don’t see how it’s an example of a straight line. It might conceivably be a metaphor for how God achieves good ends in spite of bad things, but “God writes straight with crooked lines” is a bad way of expressing that idea. “Getting somewhere good eventually” is not at all the same as being straight.

Fractal curves are not at all straight, either.

Perhaps one can blame God for not having redesigned all of physics in order to avoid earthquakes and volcanoes, but we don’t know whether there are any better alternative systems of physics. Under the laws we know, though, we really need all the geophysical phenomena that come from having a molten planet core, because otherwise we would not have air.

We owe our atmosphere to volcanoes, which have replenished it with outgassing for millions of years, and to the geomagnetic field generated by convection in molten iron, which deflects the charged particles that constantly stream from the Sun and would otherwise blow away our air. Planets like Mars, which no longer have quakes or volcanoes because their cores have cooled and solidified, have atmospheres too thin for life as we know it.

[MG 2.0]

As I've tried to catch up with this thread since getting back home I started thinking a bit about how all of this might relate to fractal geometry. Thus, my last few posts.

As far as the deeper relationships this train of thought might have to the other tracks this thread has explored I would leave to greater minds than mine.

Fractal geometry and crooked lines fit together to make a pattern that leads/results to something 'straighter' than before...a part of Tolkien's world?

Just throwing stuff out there. Some of these ideas seem, for me, to correlate with the LDS theology of opposition resulting in choices that lead to righteousness. And that's more or less surface level.

Others might see some deeper correlations/ meaning.

Regards,
MG

I think we may be working with different background stories.

Clarification is good.

If creation was never truly broken by sin and death, then crooked lines can look straight I suppose.

It is true that in one of the Thirteen Articles of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we read:

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

The Fall of Adam was a necessary event rather than a catastrophic event in the sense that all mankind are born in sin. We don't inherit the guilt of Adam being born into a state of condemnation. We are only responsible for our own sins and transgressions. The Book of Mormon teaches that "Adam fell that men might be.'

A necessary fall which resulted in the potential for spiritual death or on the other hand, life unto salvation.

If we are responsible for our own sins then we also are responsible for how we use our agency. There will be crooked lines along the way. Latter-day Saints believe that the Atonement of Christ can make crooked paths straight. Yes, there are some important theological differences between the CofJCofLDS and traditional Christian churches who are dependent on the outcomes of the Councils and the Creeds as their guide.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Limnor, even though having expressed earlier a "distrust" in me as a person (oh well) has not let that personal prejudice limit him from looking at ideas and concepts.

lol

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

I wonder if there is something to be said about how “fallenness” is understood.

LDS thought differs from the Pauline view of original sin, or sin and death entering the world as a result of the fall. Pauline thought reflects a world that was fundamentally broken by the fall and needs redemption, as compared to the LDS thought (as I understand it) that opposition and crookedness are productive conditions that lead toward exaltation.

Paul’s description just feels different. It reflects a world in which deep harm has occurred and needs healing, not one in which good outcomes might eventually be realized.

[Limnor]

It is true that in one of the Thirteen Articles of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we read:

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

The Fall of Adam was a necessary event rather than a catastrophic event in the sense that all mankind are born in sin. We don't inherit the guilt of Adam being born into a state of condemnation. We are only responsible for our own sins and transgressions. The Book of Mormon teaches that "Adam fell that men might be.'

A necessary fall which resulted in the potential for spiritual death or on the other hand, life unto salvation.

If we are responsible for our own sins then we also are responsible for how we use our agency. There will be crooked lines along the way. Latter-day Saints believe that the Atonement of Christ can make crooked paths straight. Yes, there are some important theological differences between the CofJCofLDS and traditional Christian churches who are dependent on the outcomes of the Councils and the Creeds as their guide.

Ah there it is. From that starting point, our worldviews are so different that I don’t see much room for reconciling the two views.

[MG 2.0]

If he wants to keep on topic, he can respond to my objections to his misstatements about fractal concepts.

-snip-

Nothing about accurately reading oscilloscope data suggests a need for a god, actually or metaphorically. And the idea that post-measurement data can be fine-tuned to appear 'straight' sounds more like fraud, or, in a nod to malkie, "Satan's Plan."

MG—a gesture towards trust would include responding to these points.

If not that’s ok too—the conversation was going very well before fractals and oscilloscopes entered the chat.

It is true that we may have different views in regards to how we see the world. In my estimation fractals and oscilloscopes fit in nicely, as metaphorical tools, in looking at or trying to discern reality. To each his or her own, I guess.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

MG—a gesture towards trust would include responding to these points.

If not that’s ok too—the conversation was going very well before fractals and oscilloscopes entered the chat.

It is true that we may have different views in regards to how we see the world. In my estimation fractals and oscilloscopes fit in nicely, as metaphorical tools, in looking at or trying to discern reality. To each his or her own, I guess.

Regards,
MG

So the objections and counterpoints will not be addressed? How do you align your metaphor to the objections? Or do you just reject the objections as not requiring reconciliation?

What’s the point of engaging if you are just going to reject comments?

[MG 2.0]

An oscilloscope trace wobbles up and down a lot, but at the same time also steadily moves left to right. That’s an example of a crooked line that does nonetheless manage to go somewhere, but I don’t see how it’s an example of a straight line. It might conceivably be a metaphor for how God achieves good ends in spite of bad things, but “God writes straight with crooked lines” is a bad way of expressing that idea. “Getting somewhere good eventually” is not at all the same as being straight.

Fractal curves are not at all straight, either.

Perhaps one can blame God for not having redesigned all of physics in order to avoid earthquakes and volcanoes, but we don’t know whether there are any better alternative systems of physics. Under the laws we know, though, we really need all the geophysical phenomena that come from having a molten planet core, because otherwise we would not have air.

We owe our atmosphere to volcanoes, which have replenished it with outgassing for millions of years, and to the geomagnetic field generated by convection in molten iron, which deflects the charged particles that constantly stream from the Sun and would otherwise blow away our air. Planets like Mars, which no longer have quakes or volcanoes because their cores have cooled and solidified, have atmospheres too thin for life as we know it.

On the oscilloscope. I'm simply looking at the wave pattern moving in a horizontal direction along the x axis. Up and down along the way. Life's up and downs. Crooked lines. The wave pattern moves in a straight line even with its 'crookedness'. Too much is being made of this simple visual. I think there may be some that can understand what I'm seeing in my mind's eye.

Or maybe not.

I understand that there will be 'strictly speaking' academics sitting in Ivory Towers that may not allow for simple analogies and metaphors. That's OK. No problem. It's a free country. I started the thread, I think I have every right to put in my two cents. Even if it's worth less than that to those that are extremely nit picky.

Crooked lines, Sorites, Fractals, Wavelengths on a horizontal scale. I find them all interesting as I explore what I observe in the world around me and the purposes/reasons for why...I believe...God created the world. I realize that non God fearing folks are going to push back to the nth degree. I wouldn't expect anything less.

As I've said many times, the stakes are too high not to, right? In my opinion the non believers and critics have their place in these patterns that can be observed. A straight line without the opposition pushing on it would not be all that interesting.

Regards,
MG