Mormonism is not "Christianity"

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_huckelberry
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _huckelberry »

maklelan wrote:
huckelberry wrote: I can imagine that if God gave no respect to our decision then God would be a dehumanizing force in the world. For robbing a person of their decisions destroys their personhood or soul. I think that is why God goes to great lengths to respect and nurture our decsions. That would be why his election is a call to us to choose and we must subsequently actual choose to turn towards his call. Calvinists have referred to Gods irresistable grace not because it overrides or disregards our choices but because when humans really see it they find it desirable.

There is another side to choices and that is I fear they could be given too much respect. If I make a poor choice I do not wish everybody to so respect it that they never lend me guidance or perhaps worse never let me change it. "you made your bed now you must lie in it" If God was not willing to help us unchoose some choices than there would be no forgiveness and turning from our path. In a sense it is those left to persue hell which are given by God the most unrelenting respect for their choices. God does not negate the devils choice but lets him be just who he chose to be.


It is sounding like you would agree with Latter-day Saints that though God gives all the opportunity to receive salvation, it is ultimately up to each person to satisfy the necessary criteria.


I could say I respect the LDS view which you stated. I am not enough of a dogmatist of any kind to commit to agreeing entirely with it. There are a number of variations in christian thinkng which exist in a dialogue in my mind. I am happy to let that conversation continue.
_maklelan
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _maklelan »

Paloma wrote:You have not included the source of your claims that there are certain ideologies such as corpoeal deity, creation ex materia, worship of more than one being, etc. in the first century. I don't doubt your knowledge or scholarship, but would be interested in reading and assessing these ideas in context and in light of first century Christian thought when I have time. Would you suggest some sources that I can access?


On a corporeal deity, I would point to the following:

David L. Paulsen, "Early Christian Belief in a Corporeal Deity: Origen and Augustine as Reluctant Witnesses," Harvard Theological Review 83.2 (1990): 105-16.

Kim Paffenroth," Paulsen on Augustine: An Incorporeal or Nonanthropomorphic God?" Harvard Theological Review 86.2 (1993): 233-35.

David L. Paulsen, "Reply to Kim Paffenroth's Comment," Harvard Theological Review 86.2 (1993): 235-39.

Alon Goshen Gottstein, "The Body as Image of God in Rabbinic Literature," Harvard Theological Review 87.2 (1994): 171-95.

Carl W. Griffin and David L. Paulsen, "Augustine and the Corporeality of God," Harvard Theological Review 95.1 (2002): 97-118.

Shamma Friedman, "Anthropomorphism and Its Eradication," in Iconoclasm and Iconoclash: Struggle for Religious Identity (Willem van Asselt, et al., eds.; Jewish and Christian Perspectives 14; Leiden: Brill, 2007), 157–78.

My first masters thesis also deals with the issue within Hellenistic Judaism.

On creation ex nihilo, the following:

David Winston, "The Book of Wisdom's Theory of Cosmogony," History of Religions 11.2 (1971): 186-87

Jonathan A. Goldstein, "The Origins of the Doctrine of Creation Ex Nihilo," Journal of Jewish Studies 35.2 (1984): 127-35.

David Winston, "Creation Ex Nihilo Revisited: A Reply to Jonathan Goldstein," Journal of Jewish Studies 37.1 (1986): 88-91.

Jonathan Goldstein, "Creation Ex Nihilo: Recantations and Restatements," Journal of Jewish Studies 38.2 (1987): 187-94.

Gerhard May, Creatio Ex Nihilo: The Doctrine of "Creation Out of Nothing" in Early Christian Thought (trans. A. S. Worrall; Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1994), 6-8.

James N. Hubler, "Creatio ex Nihilo: Matter, Creation, and the Body in Classical and Christian Philosophy through Aquinas" (PhD diss., University of Pennsylvania, 1995).

Maren R. Niehoff, "Creatio ex Nihilo Theology in Genesis Rabbah in Light of Christian Exegesis," Harvard Theological Review 99.1 (2006): 37-64.

On worship of more than one being, I am actually working on a publication that directly addresses this, but would point in the mean time to the following ancient texts which suggest worship of beings other than God:

4Q246 1ii:7

Rev 3:9

Dan 7:14 (Old Greek)

I Enoch 48:5; 62:6-9; 46:5; 52:4

Sefer ha-Razim 4.43-73

Josephus, Jewish War 1.128

1 Mac 5.63-64

Paloma wrote:When I mentioned that I didn't find your assertion that "...then you are saying there were no Christians in the first century" to be compelling for me, I was basing that on my own understanding of Christian history and not on the ideologies you mentioned.


Which ideologies do you believe extend back all the way to the beginning of the Christian religion and exclude Mormonism?

Paloma wrote:I do recognize that the history of orthodox Christianity is neither static nor monolithic. However, I see the tenets and practice of Mormonism, both at its inception and in the developments and evolutions of its almost two hundred year history as too widely divergent from historic Christianity to be included.


But one could very easily say that Catholic and Protestant Christianity are too widely divergent from the "historic Christianity" of the first century CE to be included. Why do you believe that Catholic and Protestant Christianity get to be the reference point?

Paloma wrote:But I also understand that ínclusion is not what is sought by Mormons. Mormonism doesn't want to be seen as belonging within orthodox Christianity, but rather as the one true Christian church, I understand. I wonder if Mormons should make that abundantly clear, just as the modern LDS Church tries to make it widely understood that other groups derived from Mormon roots (and especially the FLDS) are not Mormon.


I do not try to exclude other groups with Mormon roots from the term, and I don't believe they should be.
I like you Betty...

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_maklelan
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _maklelan »

huckelberry wrote: I could say I respect the LDS view which you stated. I am not enough of a dogmatist of any kind to commit to agreeing entirely with it. There are a number of variations in christian thinkng which exist in a dialogue in my mind. I am happy to let that conversation continue.


A refreshing perspective.
I like you Betty...

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_mormonx
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _mormonx »

zeezrom wrote:café,

I recall hearing that some people believe that way. Is that how the rest of Christianity believes? Wouldn't you have to focus your thoughts in order to redeem mankind? It would be quite a prayer. Do you believe Jesus prayed during his atonement? It seems to me that focusing while hanging on nails would be difficult indeed.

Yours,

Zee


redemption for sin had nothing to do with a prayer or the garden. redemption of Christ was carried out in the same way all redemption was done by the jews. Laying the sins of the people on a lamb or goat and killing it. The cross is the language of the Bible... find any talk of the garden in the New Testament besides the gospel. You think if he paid the price there, it would be all over the place like the cross is. I've heard some say that the drops of blood from his pours was the redeeming blood but these verses leave no question. It was all paid on the cross.

"And might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity," (Eph. 2:16).
"And through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven," (Col. 1:20).
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Paloma wrote:But I also understand that ínclusion is not what is sought by Mormons. Mormonism doesn't want to be seen as belonging within orthodox Christianity, but rather as the one true Christian church, I understand. I wonder if Mormons should make that abundantly clear, just as the modern LDS Church tries to make it widely understood that other groups derived from Mormon roots (and especially the FLDS) are not Mormon.


Do you think in that claim that the Mormon church teaches that other Christian sects are indeed not actually Christian?
_ezravan
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _ezravan »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Paloma wrote:But I also understand that ínclusion is not what is sought by Mormons. Mormonism doesn't want to be seen as belonging within orthodox Christianity, but rather as the one true Christian church, I understand. I wonder if Mormons should make that abundantly clear, just as the modern LDS Church tries to make it widely understood that other groups derived from Mormon roots (and especially the FLDS) are not Mormon.


Do you think in that claim that the Mormon church teaches that other Christian sects are indeed not actually Christian?


I thought that was the official stance of the Mormon Church... the most true book, the most true church the most true prophet.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Do you think in that claim that the Mormon church teaches that other Christian sects are indeed not actually Christian?


I thought that was the official stance of the Mormon Church... the most true book, the most true church the most true prophet.



Growing up LDS and even when I was a TBM type I was never taught nor never viewed other Christian sects and not Christian. Rather it was the LDS Church was the restoration of the full truth and priesthood authority and the other Christian sects while in a state of apostasy had some truth mingled with error but lacked authority to administer the saving ordinances. Never the less such sects were not viewed as not Christian.
_cksalmon
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _cksalmon »

maklelan wrote:The notion that Jesus is merely functionally subordinate to God but absolutely equal in essence conflicts with the the New Testament. The notion that Jesus and God are two persons within one being conflicts with the New Testament. The notion that Jesus was "very God of very God" conflicts with the New Testament.

No. Again: these are assertions, rather than arguments.
_ezravan
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _ezravan »

cksalmon wrote:
maklelan wrote:The notion that Jesus is merely functionally subordinate to God but absolutely equal in essence conflicts with the the New Testament. The notion that Jesus and God are two persons within one being conflicts with the New Testament. The notion that Jesus was "very God of very God" conflicts with the New Testament.

No. Again: these are assertions, rather than arguments.


Romans 9:5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
_KimberlyAnn
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _KimberlyAnn »

With such confusion over religion, I think we might all be in for a big surprise when we die.

I feel certain that God has a sense of humor.

KA
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