It is true that in one of the Thirteen Articles of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we read:
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
The Fall of Adam was a necessary event rather than a catastrophic event in the sense that all mankind are born in sin. We don't inherit the guilt of Adam being born into a state of condemnation. We are only responsible for our own sins and transgressions. The Book of Mormon teaches that "Adam fell that men might be.'
A necessary fall which resulted in the potential for spiritual death or on the other hand, life unto salvation.
If we are responsible for our own sins then we also are responsible for how we use our agency. There will be crooked lines along the way. Latter-day Saints believe that the Atonement of Christ can make crooked paths straight. Yes, there are some important theological differences between the CofJCofLDS and traditional Christian churches who are dependent on the outcomes of the Councils and the Creeds as their guide.
Ah there it is. From that starting point, our worldviews are so different that I don’t see much room for reconciling the two views.
It is true that we may have different views in regards to how we see the world. In my estimation fractals and oscilloscopes fit in nicely, as metaphorical tools, in looking at or trying to discern reality. To each his or her own, I guess.
Regards,
MG
So the objections and counterpoints will not be addressed? How do you align your metaphor to the objections? Or do you just reject the objections as not requiring reconciliation?
What’s the point of engaging if you are just going to reject comments?
In one short statement of fact please state the objection.
I wonder if there is something to be said about how “fallenness” is understood.
I think there definitely is. Latter-day Saints see it quite differently than traditional creedal Christianity. I would guess you are well aware of that. There has been a LOT of ink spilled on the topic. Almost can't help but getting some on you.
So the objections and counterpoints will not be addressed? How do you align your metaphor to the objections? Or do you just reject the objections as not requiring reconciliation?
What’s the point of engaging if you are just going to reject comments?
In one short statement of fact please state the objection.
Thanks.
Regards,
MG
You treat an oscilloscope wave as a “crooked path becoming straight,” while Marcus has objected by saying it’s merely a time-based measurement where no straightening, destination, or moral progression exists—so the metaphor imports meaning (and even divine oversight) that the data itself does not support.
Also this: The fractal metaphor is appealing, and I get why it resonates. Romans 8 and Ecclesiastes paint a different picture though. Creation isn’t portrayed as an eye pleasing fractal so much as it is fractured, groaning while it waits for redemption.
From your explanation, the groaning of the world sounds like something “interesting,” not something in need of repair.
Also this: The fractal metaphor is appealing, and I get why it resonates. Romans 8 and Ecclesiastes paint a different picture though. Creation isn’t portrayed as an eye pleasing fractal so much as it is fractured, groaning while it waits for redemption.
From your explanation, the groaning of the world sounds like something “interesting,” not something in need of repair.
In a certain sense because of the Fall of Adam the world is in need of redemption/repair. That comes through the life, teachings, and Infinite Atonement of Jesus Christ. We simply see it differently in a few key areas. Other than those, we're on the same page! Jesus is the key to salvation and exaltation (heaven).
Article of Faith #11:
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
Also this: The fractal metaphor is appealing, and I get why it resonates.
That's why I threw it in along with Sorites, God writing straight with crooked lines, and horizontal wavelengths. And whatever else I put into the mix. Guys, this is just an exercise in thinking outside of the box. It is kind of frustrating when certain folks go all nit picky and can't see the forest for the trees. But, truth be told, that's all part of the process in traveling crooked lines in order to 'make sense'...straighten out the lines.
Granted, that's going to look different from one person to the next because of the lens in which we view the world from where we stand.
Also this: The fractal metaphor is appealing, and I get why it resonates. Romans 8 and Ecclesiastes paint a different picture though. Creation isn’t portrayed as an eye pleasing fractal so much as it is fractured, groaning while it waits for redemption.
From your explanation, the groaning of the world sounds like something “interesting,” not something in need of repair.
In a certain sense because of the Fall of Adam the world is in need of redemption/repair. That comes through the life, teachings, and Infinite Atonement of Jesus Christ. We simply see it differently in a few key areas. Other than those, we're on the same page! Jesus is the key to salvation and exaltation (heaven).
Article of Faith #11:
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
Regards,
MG
I understand the LDS doctrine regarding the fall—and yes, I’ll say again you can believe whatever you want. What we are exploring here is how deep the damage of the fall truly was.
In one short statement of fact please state the objection.
Thanks.
Regards,
MG
You treat an oscilloscope wave as a “crooked path becoming straight,” while Marcus has objected by saying it’s merely a time-based measurement where no straightening, destination, or moral progression exists—so the metaphor imports meaning (and even divine oversight) that the data itself does not support.
Is this an accurate summary, Marcus?
Ah, stuck on the oscilloscope metaphor are we? Sure, and oscilloscope is "time based' measurement tool. The only point I'm making using the comparison with a horizontal wave seen on an oscilloscope screen is that it represents...well, I've spent enough time describing it.
The wave represents the human experience.
I suppose that I'm importing my own meaning from what I've observed looking at an ocilloscope screen. That's all okey dokey in my book. For nit pickers? Maybe not so much.
Point of interest. When I was a kid my brother and I would go into UCLA to the Brain Lab and the Neuroscience Institute (of whatever it was called) and watch our dad measure brain waves on cats that had electrodes implanted into their brains. He was working with a government grant doing sleep studies. It was pretty cool.
