Lemmie wrote:Thanks, Runtu, excellent exposition, interesting your MP's treatment, but I always feel MPs lean toward black and white descriptions, if for no other reason than that they have the impossible task of wrangling a bunch of 12-year-olds in semi-grown up bodies.
It brings up another interesting situation for me. I have 5 brothers and 1 sister. All 5 boys are Eagle Scouts and all 5 went on missions, and all 5 have told me about talks with mission presidents, etc. similar to your stories. My sister and I never had those experiences, and although I don't envy my brothers their tough times on their missions, I really do feel the sting of being treated differently for no reason other than my gender. Plus I really liked those science merit badge projects I only got to enjoy from afar.
By the way, I am thoroughly enjoying your 'Incidental Prophet' installments! thank you.
(of the 7, in case you're curious, my sister and I and my two youngest brothers are fully out, we have one Jack Mormon (out but not when Dad's around), one who is out but so laid back and easy going on his anti-depressants that his wife hasn't even noticed, and one Bednar wanna-be.)
In our family of 6, I have one surviving brother and two sisters. My brother pretty much walked away from the church at 18. My oldest sister married a Jewish guy and converted to Judaism. My other sister is married to a dean at BYU and teaches as an adjunct professor there. So, 3 of the 4 living siblings are out.
Runtu wrote:In our family of 6, I have one surviving brother and two sisters. My brother pretty much walked away from the church at 18. My oldest sister married a Jewish guy and converted to Judaism. My other sister is married to a dean at BYU and teaches as an adjunct professor there. So, 3 of the 4 living siblings are out.
That must make for some fascinating Thanksgiving conversations, Runtu. Does your family discuss religion when you are all together?
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
Quasimodo wrote:That must make for some fascinating Thanksgiving conversations, Runtu. Does your family discuss religion when you are all together?
My parents talk about church all the time, mostly because it's such a big part of their lives. I never bring it up, and I'm pretty sure my lost-sheep siblings don't either. This last time I was home, my dad started in on the reasons I should go back to church, mostly "the church puts families first and teaches good principles." I tried really hard to extricate myself from that discussion, but it was just me and him in the car alone for 45 minutes. Eventually I mentioned the anti-gay policy change, which he had not heard of. He said I must have misunderstood or was deliberately trying to make the church look bad, but all I said was what the policy was, no exaggeration. I told him I could show him the policy in the handbook when we got home, but he said, "No, I'll call [brother-in-law at BYU] and get the real story."
I have to say that really hurt, and I just stopped responding to any of it after that. That was 3 weeks ago, and I have not talked to them about the church at all since then.
Quasimodo wrote:That must make for some fascinating Thanksgiving conversations, Runtu. Does your family discuss religion when you are all together?
My parents talk about church all the time, mostly because it's such a big part of their lives. I never bring it up, and I'm pretty sure my lost-sheep siblings don't either. This last time I was home, my dad started in on the reasons I should go back to church, mostly "the church puts families first and teaches good principles." I tried really hard to extricate myself from that discussion, but it was just me and him in the car alone for 45 minutes. Eventually I mentioned the anti-gay policy change, which he had not heard of. He said I must have misunderstood or was deliberately trying to make the church look bad, but all I said was what the policy was, no exaggeration. I told him I could show him the policy in the handbook when we got home, but he said, "No, I'll call [brother-in-law at BYU] and get the real story."
I have to say that really hurt, and I just stopped responding to any of it after that. That was 3 weeks ago, and I have not talked to them about the church at all since then.
That is very sad, but understandable. I think there are subjects in all families that are best to avoid. In my case, it's politics with some relatives. Those discussion never end well and nothing is ever resolved. I tread very lightly when making Facebook posts just to keep the peace.
An aside: I was curious about your screen name so I looked it up. In Quechua it means "egg". Is that correct? I always did think of you as a good egg.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
Quasimodo wrote:That is very sad, but understandable. I think there are subjects in all families that are best to avoid. In my case, it's politics with some relatives. Those discussion never end well and nothing is ever resolved. I tread very lightly when making Facebook posts just to keep the peace.
An aside: I was curious about your screen name so I looked it up. In Quechua it means "egg". Is that correct? I always did think of you as a good egg.
It's Quechua for "egg," and slang for "testicle." It's what people called us mockingly every day of my mission. We were white like eggs and went in pairs like testicles. They were trying to offend us, but we adopted it as a sort of ironic badge of honor.
Runtu wrote: My parents talk about church all the time, mostly because it's such a big part of their lives. I never bring it up, and I'm pretty sure my lost-sheep siblings don't either. This last time I was home, my dad started in on the reasons I should go back to church, mostly "the church puts families first and teaches good principles." I tried really hard to extricate myself from that discussion, but it was just me and him in the car alone for 45 minutes. Eventually I mentioned the anti-gay policy change, which he had not heard of. He said I must have misunderstood or was deliberately trying to make the church look bad, but all I said was what the policy was, no exaggeration. I told him I could show him the policy in the handbook when we got home, but he said, "No, I'll call [brother-in-law at BYU] and get the real story."
I have to say that really hurt, and I just stopped responding to any of it after that. That was 3 weeks ago, and I have not talked to them about the church at all since then.
I had a similar experience with my younger brother when I tried to discuss with him the gay policy when it first came out, his response was that I was attacking him. I was a bit taken aback that a discussion of what the new policy said was seen as an attack. It's ironic in a way, since you and I were the ones to bring up the new policy to our own faithful family members, their initial reactions indicated that they also saw it as bad, so what we were saying couldn't be true. Funny how the messenger determines the reaction. I am sure had your father or my brother heard the news from leadership, they would have had entirely different reactions.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Quasimodo wrote:That is very sad, but understandable. I think there are subjects in all families that are best to avoid. In my case, it's politics with some relatives. Those discussion never end well and nothing is ever resolved. I tread very lightly when making Facebook posts just to keep the peace.
An aside: I was curious about your screen name so I looked it up. In Quechua it means "egg". Is that correct? I always did think of you as a good egg.
It's Quechua for "egg," and slang for "testicle." It's what people called us mockingly every day of my mission. We were white like eggs and went in pairs like testicles. They were trying to offend us, but we adopted it as a sort of ironic badge of honor.
Not to mention that testis and testimony have a relationship.
"Together the Umbrian text and the dual meaning of the Latin word testis provide evidence for the existence of an Italic rite in which the participant held his own testicles or those of a sacrificial animal while making some kind of “solemn pronouncement” (whether intoning a sacrificial formula or offering testimony in a court of law)."
"Together the Umbrian text and the dual meaning of the Latin word testis provide evidence for the existence of an Italic rite in which the participant held his own testicles or those of a sacrificial animal while making some kind of “solemn pronouncement” (whether intoning a sacrificial formula or offering testimony in a court of law)."
Coincidentally, my original blog was called "Joseph's Left One." It was a play on "runtu" but also that I felt that Joseph had left me behind, which was a good thing, in my opinion.
"Together the Umbrian text and the dual meaning of the Latin word testis provide evidence for the existence of an Italic rite in which the participant held his own testicles or those of a sacrificial animal while making some kind of “solemn pronouncement” (whether intoning a sacrificial formula or offering testimony in a court of law)."
To continue the derailing of a very good thread: A Gringo visiting a small Mexican village asked an old local squatting against a wall if he knew what time it was. The old man put his hand out and hefted the testicles of a donkey that was next to him. He peered between the donkey's legs for a moment and said "It's 2:47."
Astonished, the visitor asked the old man how he could possibly tell the time so precisely by using the donkey's testicles.
The old man said "Sit here. Now, lift the donkey's huevos. Do you see the clock on the wall across the street?"
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
Runtu wrote:Notice the phrase "fulness of the gospel." As Ezra Taft Benson explained it:
"The Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ (D&C 20:9). That does not mean it contains every teaching, every doctrine ever revealed. Rather, it means that in the Book of Mormon we will find the fulness of those doctrines required for our salvation. And they are taught plainly and simply so that even children can learn the ways of salvation and exaltation" (Benson, pp. 18-19).
But the apologists teach us that everything is nuanced, and complex etc.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')