Hey Ray

[_Yong Xi]

I certainly wouldn't advocate actively worrying about him, however. Don't you have enough on your plate in "real life"? Why actively worry about someone who may actually just have a deviant sense of humor?

Yes, I have a lot on my plate in real life. I wasn't suggesting that I would ever lose any sleep worrying about Ray, I just wondered if, while reading his posts, I should think, "Is Ray alright?" or if I should think, "Good grief, what an @$$hole!"

Thanks for the information. I won't be worrying about Ray.

KA

As I have said before, think of Ray A. as a modern day Martin Harris. Better yet, Ray A. is a modern day Martin Harris who is always running out of lithium.

[_Ray A]

As I have said before, think of Ray A. as a modern day Martin Harris. Better yet, Ray A. is a modern day Martin Harris who is always running out of lithium.

Not quite accurate. I never joined any other religion apart from Mormonism. Never even considered it for one moment. It is true I have "gone back and forth" within the Church. The reason for that is not difficult to understand. I had great difficulty believing in "the Church", and found the time demands and other "bureaucratic" observances, for want of a better description, more like "the traditions of men". I have long distinguished between the Church and the gospel, as noted in 3 Nephi 27. I also believe many "leave the Church" while still believing in some fumdamentals. In my case it was the Book of Mormon. So the expression "I left the Church" is quite accurate for me, but I still believe in many of the fundamentals, which include large portions of scripture (not all of it, for example I don't believe the earth was created in six days, or six thousand years, yet this is further qualified in the POGP with the term "time periods", so even LDS scripture is very diversified). I also believe Joseph Smith was a genuine prophet but one who was, himself, "subject to the weakness of men", and made mistakes. I still can't get my head around D&C 132, yet I find most parts of the D&C to be inspired.

This is where people like you fail to distinguish. Like Harris, my belief in the Book of Mormon remained, but I never went to another church, nor believed in any other "prophets".

When I went on RFM I was anti-Church, but not anti-Gospel, nor anti-Book of Mormon. Silly, silly me, to think that RFMers would understand this distinction. Thus began my five year animus with exmos. They want me to understand them, yet would they take the time to try to understand me? No way. And Steve Benson was initially the one who insulted me when he came on RFM to do the dirty on his family. I called him on it, but the Benson acolytes would have none of it, nor would the mods, who eradicated every single post I did. I was not even, in my exchanges with Benson, "advocating faith", I was defending myself.

[_Ray A]

As for the "hard questions" you've put to me, they appear to center around changing positions. To see this as a vice, you have to take the view that it is noble to hold onto to one's position even if it later appears to be false or not beneficial. It isn't. When my evidence changes, my views change with it. What do you do when your evidence changes?

Tell that to some of the great intellects on the Net. What did Emerson say?: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

[_Ray A]

You, now, apparently, adamantly believe in not on the Book of Mormon, but all the other truth claims of the LDS church. Yet you are unwilling to live the fairly simple demands God asks of you through his prophet.

And you have the nerve to accuse Don of being "schizoid"?

If people accuse me of being inconsistent or "schizoid", I will accuse them of the same, because no one is immune to change of opinion, no, not even you! I was a bit hard on Don, but he probably just happened to be in the firing line after Porter came with his silly comment about my "schizoid" personality. No problem, let the accusations fire away, just don't be surprised if there is return fire.

[_Ray A]

Ray's current criticism of Don:

Well, let me now put the "hard questions" to you, Don. Why have you wavered so much? One minute you post on FAIR, then declare you're leaving, only to come back, then leave again, only to come back. One minite you're friendly to Mormonism, next you're aggressive. I've never seen anyone leave and come back to FAIR as much as you have. Your "farewell"posts are now legendary! Do you have some kind of "schizoid" problem? Reading your posts over the years, I never knew where you stood. Now you're claiming to be a "scholar of Mormonism" with no ill feeling, yet here you are sucking up to exmo ****piles, with "You Rock" posts. You seem to be very unsure of your own position. Can you clarify that for me? You went from theist to atheist, and chop and change with the wind. So forgive me, Don, but you seem like a very confused person. Can you explain? I'm sure I'm not the only one who's noticed this about your, er, wavering from pillar to post, like a martyr to your own whims.

Ray a couple months ago:

Shades,

I appreciate your comments, and let me reiterate again, I have nothing against you personally. I explained to Liz in a PM that I now feel that a more moderated board is better. I've managed to stay on FAIR/MAD for three years, and only ever had one mod warning, very early on, no doubt partly because I'm more sympathetic to Mormons, but with rules one also tends to be more conscious of what is said. Having a board with less rules and moderation is okay if most of the posters share similar worldviews, but when you have Mormons and exmos on the same forum, and few rules, I don't believe it will work properly. My long history of contention with exmos goes back to RFM, and I have learned by sad experience that we will never agree, and this final episode proves it. I feel more comfortable among the believers, and my anger seldom if ever surfaces. I have tried to "fit in" with exmos many times, and it never works.

I will leave brave (or some would say foolish) Wade to cut the ice, but I'm heading for the tropics. When my admiration for Pahoran rises so sharply, I know it's time to depart, like he eventually did. Water and oil don't mix. My "analysis" of my Mormon journey will continue on MAD, where I believe I will receive a more understanding ear, even if it means occasionally checking what I write. I share neither the cynicism nor contempt of Mormons I see among some here, nor do I have any desire nor agenda to change the Church, so we have nothing to discuss. I respect the Church, I respect its leaders, and it pains me to see them denigrated in any way. They are accused of so many wrongs, yet I know and have met many of these men in the flesh, and I know they are not guilty of charges so often laid against them. Worst of all, is that having met Dan Peterson, I abhor the accusations made against him, because I know he's a man of integrity and honesty, who wishes to see a better world, who is straightforward concerning his beliefs, always willing to hear others who talk to him reasonably and respect his beliefs, yet he is so often made out to be a villain, a liar, corrupt, immoral, and just about anything which fits evil or dishonest. It disturbs him too, and I know this for a fact. He is completely perplexed at the hatred demonstrated against him, even by people he has never met nor personally offended. Apparently, his greatest fault is being a believer and an apologist.

Let the venom spew forth. I will have no part of It.

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... &start=210

Ray -

I'm amazed you were even able to type these words in particular:

I don't disable passwords so I won't "be tempted" to post on boards. Maybe you forget your own "I will never post on MAD again" statement, then five minutes later you're a Pundit on MAD. LOL!!!

[_beastie]

I don't disable passwords so I won't "be tempted" to post on boards. Maybe you forget your own "I will never post on MAD again" statement, then five minutes later you're a Pundit on MAD. LOL!!!

Ray, I hate to break it to you, but I'm not the one who began to rag on someone for changing their mind.

[_Ray A]

By the way, Don, would you like me to go back to some of your old posts on FAIR? Sorry, I can't, because you DELETED them after you posted as "Onandagus", and "left the board for good". How deep are your "spiritual conflicts", Don? Then, guess what? You came back!!!!!!! This time disguised as someone "friendly" to Mormonism. Your "objectivity" stinks to high heaven, Don.

This seems very confused. First, as stated above, I didn't go back and delete posts long after posting them. Second, I couldn't have deleted them after I left as Onandagus, because I had my Onandagus account cancelled at the time I left. Third, even when I posted under the Onandagus username, I signed my messages with my own name--just as I always have. Fourth, you can conclude, if you wish, that I am secretly hostile to Mormonism; but my posts and actions speak for themselves. I think it is no exaggeration to say that my posts tend to be as evenhanded and generous toward Mormonism as those of any nonbeliever. I'm willing to allow others to factor in faith and personal revelation without offering criticism. I have frequently acknowledged that there *is* evidence favoring Mormonism, with the caveat that I see this evidence as much weaker than the counterevidence. And I am able to see and acknowledge a great deal of good in Mormonism, including in the Book of Mormon, despite my nonbelief. The only thing more that could be asked of me from the believing side is that I actually accept LDS beliefs--which I could only do by playing makebelieve. Is that what you think I should do?

Don

I didn't say you were "secretly hostile to Mormonism".

[_Ray A]

I don't know whether to worry about him or beg Dr. Shades for an ignore function.

You don't need an ignore function, there is something called self-control. Just don't read any of my posts.

His posts are a continuous string of personal attacks. Of course, he's not the only poster here guilty of that...

Curious,

KA

Pot calls kettle "black". Your posts and threads are nothing but continuous attacks on the Church. You mock, you satrise, you insult both Mormons and their Church. Constantly.

[_Ray A]

"No worries here!" ... Ray

No offence Ray, I just couldent resist with the current thread going the way it is : )

Your illustrations are always funny, Gaz. No offence taken.

[_DonBradley]

Hi Ray,

I apologize if I misinterpreted you. I did think that you saw me as deceptively pretending to attempt scholarly detachment and friendliness toward Latter-day Saints while secretly hostile to them and their faith.

While I have arrived at the conclusion that Mormonism is not what it purports to be, I have no animus against the faith and its associated community. There are things about the faith and community that I find distasteful, and also things I admire.

In fact, I think our impressions of Mormonism, and the good and bad therein, are probably not as far apart as you may now believe, albeit with a major divide over the issue of divine inspiration. I've always appreciated the perspective you brought to Mormonism, and I agree with you on a number of issues (e.g., that the Book of Mormon is remarkable, complex work; that it's worse than foolish to demonize Joseph Smith and Mormonism; that DCP is a decent fellow; etc.)

I know your feelings about the Book of Mormon are deep and intense, and I can understand that. I *don't* fully understand your view of those who fail to attribute divine origins to it--hence, my questions to you. But I also don't want our friendly long-time interaction on the Web to mutate into personal enmity. If my comments here tended to sour that interaction, which they doubtless did, you have my apology.

My Best,

Don