The Confounding World of LDS Doctrinal Pronouncements...

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_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

I am convinced that this hair-splitting nonsense about “official doctrine” is relatively recent concept in the Church and it is deeply rooted in the apologetic movement. I was thinking about this lately because I am in the middle of a discussion over at MAD where I am told that the LDS notion of Elohim = God the Father was only a “recent” thing in Mormonism as if that was somehow supposed to make LDS less tied down to it as doctrine.



For me this was one of the reasons I stopped doing apologetics. So often I said, when faced with something strange or discomforting from say BY or some other leader "That was never or is not official doctrine." Problem is it sure seemed that much of what was not official was though of as at least doctrine by those who said it and those who heard it. But the apologist simply dismissed it with this plea. It makes LDS apologetics much easier. Another example is the idea of becoming a God, creating your own world and peopling it. Growing up in the 60's and 70's this was taught often. Now, because this is not explicit in the canon it is not really doctrine, or official. The target just seems to move too much.
If you don’t believe me when I say “official doctrine” is a recent innovation in Mormonism, just do a search for it on the LDS website. Only seven hits come up, the earliest during the 70’s.

To nail home the apologetic purpose of all this, take a long close look at this Ensign article from 1982. Someone asks the question, “Is President Lorenzo Snow’s oft-repeated statement—“As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be”—accepted as official doctrine by the Church?”


What a great example. And a great point.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Hinckley: I wouldn't say that. There was a little couplet coined, "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become." Now that's more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about.



You just don't get it, do you? No, you don't. Indeed, you cannot get it at all, at least, not as long as one remains spiritually dead.

In point of fact, Hinckley saying " Now that's more of a couplet than anything else". Is saying precisely nothing at all. But, of course, this is the point when speaking of such things to the world. His next statement, for those who have ears to hear, is where the great white whale lies:

"That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about."

You see, atheists, "freethinkers", naturalists, materialists, secular humanists, and other assorted denizens of the great and spacious Motel 8 across the river, Gordon B. Hinckley is never, under any circumstances, going to throw pearls before the Three Little Pigs or any number of them. They have no business toying with it, they can't understand it, and GBH is not going to open such things to the petty sophistries and mocking smarm of the likes of the typical mainstream media journalist or any in the world who cannot comprehend and will not take seriously sacred concepts of this kind.

Much of what goes on here in this forum, including the lionizing of such high priests of the cult of scientism such as Richard Dawkins can be easily understood to be a textbook example of why GBH dances around such questions when he's outside the Kingdom. You just don't talk about those kinds of things in the great and spacious building. They don't consider it cool and the Saints can't be bothered with the grief.

As Col. Jessup said "you can't handle the truth".
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Yours truly,

Hollis Greene


LOL!!! ROFLMAO!!!

This gets the gold medal for the funniest four word post ever.

How about coggins as moe?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Runtu wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:While I think the theologicl implications of Lecture on Faith Five, that declares the Father a personage of spirit, it is not unreasonable to suppose the Joseph Smith did not know the Father had a body at this time. An interesting study I think in BYU studies, by David Paulsen, Called the Divine Emodiment of God, clearly shows that even though early LDS theology may have considered God the Father being a spirit, He was considered and emobodied spirit, not a spirit that filled the immensity of space. Read the Book of Moses and it comes clear that even in 1831 LDS believed God was emodied though they may not have known or taught that he had a tangible body.


I've heard this as well. What's harder to explain is how the Holy Ghost became the third member of the Godhead. At the time of the Lectures on Faith, there were only two members of the Godhead. Mosiah 15 also seems to suggest a more traditional reading of God as Spirit and Jesus as God in the flesh.


There is no question the LDS theology pre 1838 was more traditional with other sects of Christianity. While as I noted, there was some divergence, it was still more classical in nature. The Book of Mormon particularly the passage you refer to demonstrates this. But Mormonism took a radical departure post 1838. Now it seems that we are back peddling. As noted, Joseph Smith taught that eternal life was based on knowing God, His characteristics and attributes and it was not just some hazy idea in order to practice being a better Christian and more Christ like.

But I can tell you that personally, I have come to conclude that the LDS Church really is a moving target on its doctrine so I, like Wade, focus on practice and practical living and just don't worry much about the details about what God is. Why should I if our prophets and apostles cannot seem to get it straight either.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

While I think the theologicl implications of Lecture on Faith Five, that declares the Father a personage of spirit, it is not unreasonable to suppose the Joseph Smith did not know the Father had a body at this time. An interesting study I think in BYU studies, by David Paulsen, Called the Divine Emodiment of God, clearly shows that even though early LDS theology may have considered God the Father being a spirit, He was considered and emobodied spirit, not a spirit that filled the immensity of space. Read the Book of Moses and it comes clear that even in 1831 LDS believed God was emodied though they may not have known or taught that he had a tangible body.


Joseph Smith had SEEN God the Father with his own two eyes at this point, and he still wasn't sure if he had a body?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

For me this was one of the reasons I stopped doing apologetics. So often I said, when faced with something strange or discomforting from say BY or some other leader "That was never or is not official doctrine." Problem is it sure seemed that much of what was not official was though of as at least doctrine by those who said it and those who heard it. But the apologist simply dismissed it with this plea. It makes LDS apologetics much easier.



Jason, in all frankness your only going to be able to use this excuse for so long before you lose your O rings and the whole contraption explodes in mid air.

Single apostles cannot set, settle, or officially answer unanswered doctrinal questions or problems or interpret doctrine in an idiosyncratic manner for the church, without a body of teaching behind and around them that tends in a certain direction (that is, in unison with other GAs and a body of interpretation that already has a history and context). The President of the Church himself, who is authorized to receive and reveal doctrine, practice, and doctrinal interpretations for the Church, cannot have his teachings made binding upon the Saints without the unanimity of his counselors and the Twelve.

The "what is official Church doctrine" question is a red herring for both apologists and critics, as far as I'm concerned. The Church has set out some pretty clear guidelines in the past regarding this that I think are clear enough for those not actively seeking doctrinal or personal wiggle room in Zion. The problem here is that there are a number of doctrines and teachings found in God's Kingdom that are true that are not "official". They're true (and can be known to be so in the same manner the "official" ones can be know to be true) but not binding on the Saints (yet). There is also LDS "folk doctrine" that may or may not have value at the end of the day.

The deciding factor here is the Holy Spirit, and in particular, the Gift of his continual companionship. He teaches us what is true, what is partially true, and what is false or misleading. LDS apologetics is possible because there is a core, settled body of doctrine in the Church that all faithful LDS agree upon. We also, as my life long experience in the Church suggests, agree upon most of the unofficial, yet long taught and generally settled "unofficial" doctrines which are true, but not as yet brought from the periphery to the center.

Those who do not understand the difference between "official" and "unofficial" doctrine are, in my experience, usually those who are either not sufficiently educated in the doctrines and government of the Church to make the necessary discriminations, and/or those who have let their relationship with the Holy Spirit atrophy to the point that confusion ensues where none really needs to.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

beastie wrote:
While I think the theologicl implications of Lecture on Faith Five, that declares the Father a personage of spirit, it is not unreasonable to suppose the Joseph Smith did not know the Father had a body at this time. An interesting study I think in BYU studies, by David Paulsen, Called the Divine Emodiment of God, clearly shows that even though early LDS theology may have considered God the Father being a spirit, He was considered and embodied spirit, not a spirit that filled the immensity of space. Read the Book of Moses and it comes clear that even in 1831 LDS believed God was embodied though they may not have known or taught that he had a tangible body.


Joseph Smith had SEEN God the Father with his own two eyes at this point, and he still wasn't sure if he had a body?



I believe that the idea of divine embodiment would answer that yes. Think if Ether where the brother of Jared sees the finger of the Lord (Jesus pre mortal) and is scared because he did not think God had a body. Then the pre mortal Jesus reveals himself and says the body of his spirit looks the same as his body will. Makes sense I think.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I believe that the idea of divine embodiment would answer that yes. Think if Ether where the brother of Jared sees the finger of the Lord (Jesus pre mortal) and is scared because he did not think God had a body. Then the pre mortal Jesus reveals himself and says the body of his spirit looks the same as his body will. Makes sense I think.


Then how did he know Jesus had a body if they look exactly the same?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Jason Bourne
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Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Coggins7 wrote:
For me this was one of the reasons I stopped doing apologetics. So often I said, when faced with something strange or discomforting from say BY or some other leader "That was never or is not official doctrine." Problem is it sure seemed that much of what was not official was though of as at least doctrine by those who said it and those who heard it. But the apologist simply dismissed it with this plea. It makes LDS apologetics much easier.



Jason, in all frankness your only going to be able to use this excuse for so long before you lose your O rings and the whole contraption explodes in mid air.

Single apostles cannot set, settle, or officially answer unanswered doctrinal questions or problems or interpret doctrine in an idiosyncratic manner for the church, without a body of teaching behind and around them that tends in a certain direction (that is, in unison with other GAs and a body of interpretation that already has a history and context). The President of the Church himself, who is authorized to receive and reveal doctrine, practice, and doctrinal interpretations for the Church, cannot have his teachings made binding upon the Saints without the unanimity of his counselors and the Twelve.

The "what is official Church doctrine" question is a red herring for both apologists and critics, as far as I'm concerned. The Church has set out some pretty clear guidelines in the past regarding this that I think are clear enough for those not actively seeking doctrinal or personal wiggle room in Zion. The problem here is that there are a number of doctrines and teachings found in God's Kingdom that are true that are not "official". They're true (and can be known to be so in the same manner the "official" ones can be know to be true) but not binding on the Saints (yet). There is also LDS "folk doctrine" that may or may not have value at the end of the day.

The deciding factor here is the Holy Spirit, and in particular, the Gift of his continual companionship. He teaches us what is true, what is partially true, and what is false or misleading. LDS apologetics is possible because there is a core, settled body of doctrine in the Church that all faithful LDS agree upon. We also, as my life long experience in the Church suggests, agree upon most of the unofficial, yet long taught and generally settled "unofficial" doctrines which are true, but not as yet brought from the periphery to the center.

Those who do not understand the difference between "official" and "unofficial" doctrine are, in my experience, usually those who are either not sufficiently educated in the doctrines and government of the Church to make the necessary discriminations, and/or those who have let their relationship with the Holy Spirit atrophy to the point that confusion ensues where none really needs to.


Well let me ask you a question. I have studied LDS teaching about the Godhead quite extensively. Do you agree that the Church teaches God was once a man? Do you agree with it teaches, or once taught that there is an infinite regression of God's?

Well I have prayed about both of these. And the spirit tells me that God the Father was never a man like us and that there is not an infinite regression of Gods. Both teachings contradict official LDS Canon. And there is a bright LDS fellow out there named Blake Ostler that agrees. Have you read anything by him?
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

beastie wrote:
While I think the theologicl implications of Lecture on Faith Five, that declares the Father a personage of spirit, it is not unreasonable to suppose the Joseph Smith did not know the Father had a body at this time. An interesting study I think in BYU studies, by David Paulsen, Called the Divine Emodiment of God, clearly shows that even though early LDS theology may have considered God the Father being a spirit, He was considered and emobodied spirit, not a spirit that filled the immensity of space. Read the Book of Moses and it comes clear that even in 1831 LDS believed God was emodied though they may not have known or taught that he had a tangible body.


Joseph Smith had SEEN God the Father with his own two eyes at this point, and he still wasn't sure if he had a body?



Are you folks really this naïve and facile, or is this a game being played for which I just don't understand the rules?

If you really don't understand LDS doctrine to this degree, what on earth are you doing criticizing it? Do you really need help with this, or would you like to try again and see if you can make it on your own here without training wheels?

Any TBMs who know the answer to this, I'd like to see a post helping the Dawkinites with Joseph's quote regarding God being a personage of Spirit. Gee, I wonder why I never had a problem understanding what Joseph, in light of other basic LDS doctrine, meant here?

Hint: we are all personages of spirit in LDS teaching.

Please, I've been doing really well with the alcohol of late. Please don't tempt me...
Last edited by Dr. Sunstoned on Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
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