Oh Those Missionaries!

[_Jersey Girl]

I'm twisting nothing. What I'm saying is that, based upon his description, he never had a testimony at all. He had something perhaps, but not the real article.

I know better Jersey, so please...

I have a hard time understanding how a person so continuously in violation of the WoW, who underwent not one but two Church courts, is in much of a position to be making declarations about the legitimacy of others' testimonies.

No, Scratch, you've got it all wrong. Here, take my hand...You see, Loran is exactly correct. If B&L only had the "right" testimony, the genuine solid gold real deal, he wouldn't have lost it. He obviously had the "wrong" testimony, a pathetically false hollow version. The real thing cannot be lost. Ergo, the obvious possession of the false version. B&L was obviously delusional when he thought he had a testimony.

;-)

I think she's got it! I really think she's got it!

Yes, but will Loran get it? Methinks not.
;-)

[_Mister Scratch]

I'm twisting nothing. What I'm saying is that, based upon his description, he never had a testimony at all. He had something perhaps, but not the real article.

I know better Jersey, so please...

I have a hard time understanding how a person so continuously in violation of the WoW, who underwent not one but two Church courts, is in much of a position to be making declarations about the legitimacy of others' testimonies.

No, Scratch, you've got it all wrong. Here, take my hand...You see, Loran is exactly correct. If B&L only had the "right" testimony, the genuine solid gold real deal, he wouldn't have lost it. He obviously had the "wrong" testimony, a pathetically false hollow version. The real thing cannot be lost. Ergo, the obvious possession of the false version. B&L was obviously delusional when he thought he had a testimony.

;-)

Wha....? You mean there are different kinds of testimonies?!? Shocking! Especially since, each F&T meeting, they all sound so remarkably similar!

[_Coggins7]

I'm twisting nothing. What I'm saying is that, based upon his description, he never had a testimony at all. He had something perhaps, but not the real article.

I know better Jersey, so please...

I have a hard time understanding how a person so continuously in violation of the WoW, who underwent not one but two Church courts, is in much of a position to be making declarations about the legitimacy of others' testimonies.

I have even greater difficulty understanding how someone who has never had a testimony, or betrayed and violated the one he or she had, has any similar credibility.

Beyond that, the Church courts were upwards of 23 years ago. You are an ethical insect that it is just impossible to respect Scratch. I've never lost my testimony, and I've never not been active in the Church in some capacity, even if intermittently, and you have no idea about the situation. I have never turned my back on the Church intellectually or in my heart, no matter what I was doing or how I may have felt on the surface. My testimony is as it always was, nothing has changed there. It remains, as it must, a direct and ineffable connection between the mortal and the eternal.

I am a work still in progress within the Kingdom, unlike some others who, embarrassed and ashamed of Christ, have moved out of Zion and rented a room in the great and spacious building. I don't know if its even possible to "lose" an actual, authentic testimony without violating one's conscience. There are other forms of testimony, including intellectual and emotional (well represented by the parable of the sower) and these, indeed, can be lost.

[_Mister Scratch]

Back to the topic at hand:

I'm not surprised at the actions of the elders.

Neither am I, to tell you the truth. Missionary lore is rife with such things--not just vandalism and rottenness of that nature, but sexual escapades, dishonesty, money-making schemes, and Lord knows what else. These are youngsters, after all, who've likely grown up in rather stultifying environments, and, hey, let's face it: that sort of "freedom" (yes, I know, all the restrictions and whatnot) can work on people's heads in certain ways.

Not terribly long ago, I was speaking with an RM who told me that they'd ripped the so-called "tree of life" showerheads out of the MTC, due to "sick things" and "perversions" taking place. (The "tree of life" showerheads are the pillar-like installations with nozzles running around the top of the columns, so that multiple persons can shower at the same time.)

What I *do* find surprising, though, is the lengths people are going to in an attempt to excuse the behavior on the other board. This from a group that finds anti-mormon conspiracies lurking the shadows of any burglary into a church building.

Someone even "forensically" inspected the photo of the boy with the statue head and determined that since there weren't any chips on the ground, the boy must not have removed the head himself. Another doofus (Selek, I think) is arguing about needing proof, when really if these boys had any shred of integrity left, they should simply confess their error instead of waiting for a "trial."

Sheesh.

Yes, hilarious. Many, such as juliann, have speculated about the break point on the head. There also appears to be a debate underway about stoneworking, and whether or not the head would have broken off smoothly like that. A few TBMs are rightly condemning these elders' behavior. Another poster suggested that all missionaries should have to undergo "sensitivity training" via attendance at the services of 10 other churches. Guess what the reply to that was?

Make it mandatory for all incoming missionaries to attend religious services of at least 10 distinct religions or sects so that they don't enter the mission field with a narrow myopic view that only the LDS church is "true".

That ought to do it.

I've attended the religious services of at least ten distinct religions or sects, yet I still hold the narrow, myopic view that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church upon the earth.

Clinical trials suggest that your proposed cure-all won't do the job.

But could it hurt? In any case, DCP *does* seem to be saying that there is a fundamental arrogance at the heart of Mormonism that will never go away. I daresay that this selfsame arrogance was at the very heart of these two missionaries' disrespectful behavior. It's a real pity that Mopologist Numero Uno can do nothing but offer up a counter to the suggestion that LDS missionaries might do well to be a bit more sensitive to other faiths.....

[_harmony]

Seems to me like I remember the tale of the Sacred Swans, killed for a Thanksgiving dinner by missionaries in Japan.

[_Tarski]

And let me be clear, I don't necessarily mean moral problems. Pride, intellectual arrogance and humanistic self sufficiency, shallow materialism, and the materialist self absorption of an affluent, decadent cultural ethos, is as much "sin" as is adultery or breaking the WoW, and just as much a "reason' to find the Church untrue as is justification for moral or ethical weaknesses.

In other words, everytime you looked at an "apostate" up close you found something about their philosophy politics or tastes that wasn't the same as yours. Of course we have seen that anyone who doesn't embrace your anti-liberal zealotry or your supernaturalism is a sinner of the worst sort by definition (your definition).

I imagine you must consider Harry Reid (a patriot and a member in good standing) as somehow in cahoots with Satan his nonexistent self.

[_Brackite]

Here is the URL Address to the MA&D Version about this, to that Discussion thread:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... opic=33704

[_sunstoned]

I'm twisting nothing. What I'm saying is that, based upon his description, he never had a testimony at all. He had something perhaps, but not the real article.

I know better Jersey, so please...

I have a hard time understanding how a person so continuously in violation of the WoW, who underwent not one but two Church courts, is in much of a position to be making declarations about the legitimacy of others' testimonies.

I have even greater difficulty understanding how someone who has never had a testimony, or betrayed and violated the one he or she had, has any similar credibility.

Beyond that, the Church courts were upwards of 23 years ago. You are an ethical insect that it is just impossible to respect Scratch. I've never lost my testimony, and I've never not been active in the Church in some capacity, even if intermittently, and you have no idea about the situation. I have never turned my back on the Church intellectually or in my heart, no matter what I was doing or how I may have felt on the surface. My testimony is as it always was, nothing has changed there. It remains, as it must, a direct and ineffable connection between the mortal and the eternal.

I am a work still in progress within the Kingdom, unlike some others who, embarrassed and ashamed of Christ, have moved out of Zion and rented a room in the great and spacious building. I don't know if its even possible to "lose" an actual, authentic testimony without violating one's conscience. There are other forms of testimony, including intellectual and emotional (well represented by the parable of the sower) and these, indeed, can be lost.

Coggins7,

I'm glad that you are progressing. We are all works in progress. I'm usually a bystander is most of these types of threads, but allow me to make a comment this time. I believe your posts would be better received if you would be less judgmental and a little less inflammatory. We have Crocket for that kind of stuff.

Oh, and by the way, regarding the OP. This kinda stuff does happen. It happened on my mission.

[_moksha]

On my mission a few elders had asked me to take a picture of them as they posed disrespectively on religious statues. I also remember seeing other disrespectful pictures that were similar. My observation has been that this kind of behavior is not uncommin in the LDS Church. But I severely doubt that the missionary broke the head on purpose. I suspect that it was broken accidentally... maybe while sitting on the head for a pose.

This seems so terribly strange what you and Capt. Jack are suggesting, yet I do know that respect for other religions is not taught on the pre-mission level. I would hope that respect would have been instilled at the Missionary Training Center.

I know Runtu served a Spanish speaking mission. I wish he was here to share his experience in this regard to let us know how widespread this is beyond what Capt and and Mike experienced. His honesty is aways appreciated. I think I will check out that MAD thread for more background.



Just wanted to add, I hope the silver lining of this is that Missionaries are taught greater respect for other faith traditions before they are sent into the field.

[_moksha]

Don't know why I am thinking so intently on Spanish speaking missions when this happened in Colorado, although I imagine if there are exclusively Spanish speaking missions there, that they have just taken an enormous hit with this story.