Pine Box Thread: Suicide or Giving in to Rape?

[_antishock8]

I realized some time ago that in many ways critics and apologists have quite a bit in common in regards to their beliefs about the church:

1. A prophet is just a man leading the church.
2. Scriptures (even the Book of Mormon) are not the word of God nor can they be taken as truth.
3. Members should believe whatever they want.
4. Following the prophet is not necessarily a good idea, best to follow your own ideas.
5. Because something is doctrine it doesn't mean it is true.
6. You can't trust leaders to provide truth.
7. The church is a mixture of men's (not to be confused with humankind's) opinion mingled with scripture.
8. Don't rely on leaders or the church to provide answers to the deep questions of life.
9. Doctrine can (and does) change in a heart beat.
10. Commandments, advice, counsel, direction given by the Brethren are not necessarily inspired, and may or may not be worth adhering to.

~dancer~

I actually lul'zd on that one.

[_truth dancer]

It seems that revelation only comes when a person asks for it. I've known some good men who it was clear thought they knew better than to waste time asking for guidance--and they ran their stakes and wards that way. Then there are the humble ones who truly want to know the mind and will of the Lord.

Maybe I think too highly of most LDS leaders but I'm guessing the vast majority of bishops, believe they are inspired as they give counsel to members, and direct their wards. I think most of the Brethren pray for inspiration and believe they receive it as they speak on behalf of the church, teach "truth" in GC.

To suggest that those who are called as bishops or leaders don't want to waste their time asking for guidance really sounds odd to me, even as a non-believer.

My observation is that these LDS leaders who really get it wrong, all the way from SWK, BRM, and ETB, to the local Bishops and folks on MAD, ALL believe they are in the right, following Christ, teaching truth. Those who disagree with them, all the way from apologists who claim Joseph Smith just didn't know what he was talking about, to those who disagree with the teachings of past LDS leaders, believe it is THEY who are they ones who "know" truth and are sharing the real doctrine.

In other words, believers all seem to think they know what is truth but the church is silent.

~dancer~

[_Roger Morrison]

Jason's response to Incon:

Well my friend, at times you and I disagree but not on this one. I agree whole heartedly. The mind set of some Mormons on this just sicken me. I believe the comments made be past leaders that perpetuates this ought to be repudiated.

Thank You Jason, as usual to me You are THE exemplary LDS person. Too few in numbers ;-)

"Repudiation" is what LDSism must be built upon IF it is to retain ANY credibility in the coming generation(s). What is there about authoritians that they don't seem able to admit to ever being wrong? Although they did quietly re-enstate JDLee, and Hubner...

I note Scott's quote was made in 1992, 16 years ago. Maybe it isn't fair to think he still thinks the same?? What curses LDSism is its "promotions from within". "No free-thinkers allowed!" Sad, and shameful. It needn't be. Warm regards, Roger

[_Inconceivable]

And the pine box story Elder Romney told...do you believe everyone in his audience was saying "Yea, that's right, I'd rather my child was dead'...don't you think some in the audience cringed as he said it..

Alter Idem,

Here are the checks and balances set in place:

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.
40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.
41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—
43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;
44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 121:39 - 44)

There must not be a Mormon God.

When was the last time we heard of Him Reproving His leaders for Wrong Reason?

No corrections, no "mis-statement", no formal apologies, no clarifications. no "Thus Saith the Lord"'s.

No accountability.

Just a rather sizeable lump under the rug for all to stumble upon.


They said this crap about the Pine Box - to have refuted it at the time they said it would have brought a member ultimately to a church court of love - to reprove that member with sharpness.

[_Jason Bourne]

I owe a few comments on this thread still. I have been busy and it may be a bit before I can do so. I will get back to ya all soon!