damned if you do, damned if you don't... (about prop 8)

[_rcrocket]

Ahh, I see. Bob gave 5000+ f*** yous to the gays, and now he's upset that they didn't take very kindly to that.

I am surprised that you think that I am upset about anything. I am not. Persons who get upset are those who cannot engage in civil discourse, who use vulgarity, vulgar persons who cannot control their emotions.

My post indicated that there was nothing illegal about the harassment and boycotting, and since you dislike Mormons so much I can see how you could easily say that it is "right" to persecute them.

Deny this if you dare.

I really don't expect you to see my point of view at all. I have told you what I personally believe and feel -- you dispute it as I would expect you would. I give you the courtesy of giving credence to what you personally believe, but I don't expect the same in return from those who hate.

[_rcrocket]

Excommunication of church members who oppose the leaders on issues such as this, also leads to "wrong" things and bigotry by LDS.

This is quite a different matter, although Elder Clayton has gone out of its way to say that those who opposed Prop 8 are entitled to say so and that their membership is not in jeopardy. I'd be interested to have an example of somebody excommunicated merely for saying that he opposed Prop 8.

Moreover, the Church's revocation of somebody's membership is quite a different matter than the persecution innocent members of the Church are enduring in California who had nothing to do with Prop 8.

Violence, bullying, and vandalism by the extremists of their group only hurts their cause and I do see something wrong with it.
I understand the relationship with the two but it works on both sides.

I guess that justifies it, doesn't it? I have a real problem with folks who change the subject to justify what is clearly unreasonable persecution of Mormons. And, here it comes -- the subject change:

Look at the history of racism, polygamy, ERA, etc. in the Mormon church. Members were exd and had their characters slandered in the community for speaking their mind. . . . .It happens on both sides.

My little seven-year-old son, cursed and spit upon as he participated in church services, had nothing to do with that. My ward members whose tires were slashed had nothing to do with that. One does not justify the other.

I do believe in the right to withdraw financial support of businesses or products that I find are in opposition to issues I am passionate about.

OK. Go ahead and do that to the Muslim retail store owner, just because you hate Muslims. Or the Jewish doctor, just because you hate Jews. Engaging in this type of financial decision is certainly something you are free to do, but to base such a decision upon somebody's ethnicity or religious background is despicable conduct. Boycotting and discriminating against some particular person because he contributed to Prop 8 is one thing; doing it to somebody who is a Mormon who may or may not have had anything to do with it (the call to boycott various restaurants, the State of Utah, the Marriott Corporation; standing with signs in front of the temple: "Utah is a Hate State" and "Mormons Go to Hell") is quite another. Moreover, in California it isn't a simple "boycott." It is a boycott plus all the other nasty things that are happening.

[_Seven]

"rcrocket"]

I guess that justifies it, doesn't it? I have a real problem with folks who change the subject to justify what is clearly unreasonable persecution of Mormons. And, here it comes -- the subject change:

Seven: Look at the history of racism, polygamy, ERA, etc. in the Mormon church. Members were exd and had their characters slandered in the community for speaking their mind. . . . .It happens on both sides.



rcrocket: My little seven-year-old son, cursed and spit upon as he participated in church services, had nothing to do with that. My ward members whose tires were slashed had nothing to do with that. One does not justify the other.

They are both wrong. That was my point. I condemn what both sides have done.

OK. Go ahead and do that to the Muslim retail store owner, just because you hate Muslims. Or the Jewish doctor, just because you hate Jews. Engaging in this type of financial decision is certainly something you are free to do, but to base such a decision upon somebody's ethnicity or religious background is despicable conduct. Boycotting and discriminating against some particular person because he contributed to Prop 8 is one thing; doing it to somebody who is a Mormon who may or may not have had anything to do with it (the call to boycott various restaurants, the State of Utah, the Marriott Corporation; standing with signs in front of the temple: "Utah is a Hate State" and "Mormons Go to Hell") is quite another. Moreover, in California it isn't a simple "boycott." It is a boycott plus all the other nasty things that are happening.

I thought we were talking about individuals [the list] who donated money. I don't support boycotting businesses of an entire race or religion based on individuals that have opposing views to mine.
You do realize the blacklist includes Catholics, EVs, and any person who donated substantial money to Prop 8? The cursing is happening to my non LDS friends as well. It just happens that Mormons were the main money and power behind it. Any person who had a "Yes on 8" sign was a target. The LDS had a much more aggressive effort than any group out there and with our amazing organization, are an easy target for picketers.

Look, my family and I are all LDS and didn't donate any money to 8. I live in California and fear people will judge me based on my church's involvement. It is a little scary to attend church with my kids when there is vandalism and hatred out there. I only thought it was interesting to see the parallel of bigotry in Mormon culture towards fellow LDS who oppose doctrines or church teachings. I wasn't justifying anything, just pointing out that the shoe is on the other foot now.

[_antishock8]

I think in simplistic terms this is like a bully pushing the little skinny kid one too many times, and he got punched in the face. I really don't comprehend why Mormons are surprised that they're being aggressed on after years and years of aggressive anti-gay rhetoric, action, torture, and now a concerted effort to take away their right to marry like any other Californian.

What's really sad is Mormons are now using this as an opportunity to turn themselves into the victim. How twisted. You push a people around, and when they push back you're the victim. Nice. Real nice.

[_asbestosman]

In other words the violence is justified?

Sorry, but two wrongs don't make a right in my world. Both the bully and the skinny kid should be punished. Self-defense is one thing. Revenge is something else entirely. I have no sympathy for people who do not control their anger. Personally I believe that most gays understand this and are not resorting to violence.

[_Brackite]

Deny this if you dare. I have argued this with a handfull of Mormons offline, and seen the arguments over on MADB about this, and spent over an hour arguing about this with my own bishop, and I'm convinced that the overwhelming majority of Mormons who supported Prop 102 and Prop 8, in principle at least if they weren't able to vote on them, did so out of fear of some kind of gay agenda to spread homosexuality to all people, to get all heterosexual people to "succumb" to homosexuality, and to essentially ruin the entire nation by it.

Proposition 102 Needed to Win Within the State of Arizona, Since Arizona is a Red State and a Conservative State.

Oh, And How Sweet it is that Proposition 102 Passed, Within the Great State of Arizona.


Here are the Election Results, On Arizona's Proposition 102, and the Presidential Election Results, Within Arizona:

PROPOSITION 102:


Marriage:


County ------------ Yes ------------ No

------------------------------------

Total -------- 1,258,355 ------ 980,753
Percentage ------ 56.2% -------- 43.8%

Presidential Electors:


County --------- McCAIN (REP) ------ OBAMA (Democrat)

-----------------------------------------------

Total ------------- 1,230,111 --------- 1,034,707
Percentages --------- 53.6% ------------- 45.1%

( The Election Results, Within the State of Arizona: )

[_Sethbag]

Are you trying to make a point, Brackite? If so, then you are too wise to be understood.

[_quaker]

Will you please provide links to both the article and the comments?

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=39590&st=0

Link to smac's posts with plenty of linked articles. These articles include the quote by Bill Condon,

"If you're asking, 'Do we take discrimination against gays as seriously as bigotry against African Americans and Jews?' . . . the answer is, 'Of course we do.' But we also believe that some people, including Rich [Raddon], saw Prop. 8 not as a civil rights issue but a religious one. That is their right. And it is not, in and of itself, proof of bigotry."

For more comments google, 'bill condon raddon'. That got me plenty of quick results.


As for Mr. Callahan, there are probably good reasons that he should be excommunicated from the Church. He is 'Flatlander' on the postmormon forum.

I would encourage everyone who knows inactive members to do exactly as you did, Tanya, and just mention that it's easy to resign. Send them to Signing for Something's "Resigning" page where they can register their resignation, and also find links to information on resigning.

Basically, now that he doesn't attend Church he is devoting his time, effort and talents to cleaning up the Church's records :)

http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/11857/

http://signingforsomething.org/blog/?page_id=1784

[_Brackite]

Jason, is anyone being hounded publicly who didn't give over a thousand dollars to the Yes on 8 campaign?

I don't know. Who cares? is $1000 the magic make it ok number?

El Coyote Boycott? Mormon Manager’s Faith Overrides “Love” For Customers:

About 70 people gathered at the legendary El Coyote café in Los Angeles' Fairfax District Wednesday morning for a community sit down/brunch to hear Marjorie Christoffersen speak about why she gave $100 to Yes on 8 via the Mormon Church.

( http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/200 ... -it-worse/ )

[_Sethbag]

I watched and read that link that Brackite just put up about the El Coyote restaurant, and I do think it's a little over the top for people to still be talking about boycotting the restaurant because one Mormon manager there gave $100 to Yes on 8, when the restaurant itself has pledged $5000 to each of two gay organizations now, and there are 88 other employees at the restaurant, many of whom are gay.

But really, I felt just sick in my heart for this woman, Marjorie, who claims to love gay people, and be their friend, but who has been deceived by a bunch of charlatans into believing fairy tales, and who believed she needed to act against these gay "friends" of hers because they said so.

She should have known better. I really hope she takes this episode and thinks long and hard about just why she listened to the Brethren anyway, and donated money to take away her beloved friends' rights. Maybe she'll realize she's been duped.

But I do hope that cooler heads prevail in this case, and they lay off the restaurant.