An evening with Daniel Peterson

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_Sethbag
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Re: An evening with Daniel Peterson

Post by _Sethbag »

One quote I have a problem with, from DCP, is this one:

The Book of Mormon is in the realm of faith. It has enough evidence for those who want to believe, he said, but not enough to prove it or force others to believe.

"That's by design," Peterson said.

How does he know that this is Elohim's design? This appears to me to be a post hoc excuse to explain away a serious problem - that the evidence to prove that the Book of Mormon events actually happened in real life, and not just in the minds of some 19th century Americans, is incredibly thin to non-existent, and then only in the minds of true believers.

Joseph Smith doesn't seem to have believed this. He saw physical evidence all over the place. Adam's altar. The bones of Zelph. The mounds. The Mesoamerican cities that were discovered. Joseph explained all sorts of things as physical relics from that time period and context, and wasn't shy about naming and explaining them as such.

The problem for LDS seems to be that, as we learn more about the ancient Americas, the Book of Mormon story, as described and taught by Joseph Smith, has become less and less plausible, and the theory has instead grown up in apologetic circles, that we were never actually meant to have any proof of the Book of Mormon, because then we wouldn't have to have faith.

But nobody has ever justified this claim with anything convincing. Such as what exactly is so great about faith without evidence, that makes it actually more desirable than rational belief based on evidence? Did Joseph Smith really regard the Book of Mormon stories as some untouchable but yet real historical phenomenon that we would never prove because the geography was too small? That the biological fingerprints of the Book of Mormon peoples would be swallowed up in a veritable ocean of "others"? There's simply nothing in the history of Joseph Smith that shows that he saw things that way.

It appears to me that Joseph Smith made up all kinds of claims about things, explaining them in terms of the Book of Mormon stories, or else in terms of Adam and the Garden of Eden, (or Abraham, or Joseph of Egypt, etc.), which he justifiably thought nobody could ever contradict because enough was not known by the arm of flesh. Then the arm of flesh learned a lot more, and started casting Joseph Smith's claims in a pall of high improbability, and now the LDS apologists are reacting by claiming that evidence never can prove the Book of Mormon events really occurred, and that that is, for some reason, what we should actually expect from God.

Not so fast, I say.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Trevor
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Re: An evening with Daniel Peterson

Post by _Trevor »

From the website:

Olivewood Books is a store that features the best in LDS art and scholarship. It is a concept store that brings together a gallery of fine art and the top selection of religious writings. On display in the gallery are original works by Joseph Brickey. Olivewood also offers giclee prints of the artwork of Joseph Brickey and Minerva Teichert and the photography of Bob Boyd, who is well known for his pictures of LDS temples. The bookstore features the scholarly works of the Neal A. Maxwell Institute, which includes F.A.R.M.S. and BYU Studies. Within the store is a reading room where patrons are encouraged to sit in a comfortable chair by the fireplace and browse through books or the latest local and national newspapers.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_harmony
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Re: An evening with Daniel Peterson

Post by _harmony »

Sethbag wrote:One quote I have a problem with, from DCP, is this one:

[snip]

Not so fast, I say.


See what I mean? That is why message boards are so great. No one said this at Daniel's presentation. No one questioned him or brought up any points for further consideration.

Daniel's presentation was a one-way street, him spoon-feeding the audience. This thread is more than that. Here we have more than one point of view, more than one theory.

This is a good thing, and it's what is sorely missing from Daniel and Company's dogged adherance to books, articles, presentations, firesides. People cannot make an informed choice, unless they hear all sides, not just the church's take on things.

Unless... giving people enough information to make informed choices isn't what Daniel and Co have in mind?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_The Dude
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Re: An evening with Daniel Peterson

Post by _The Dude »

D. Jeffrey Meldrum, an Idaho State University associate professor of biology


Oh, that Meldrum. The Bigfoot guy. I heard him on NPR last August talking about a trend of evidence suggesting that there could be a real Sasquatch in North America. It sounded very Mormon-apologetic to me.






BIGFOOT LIVES :surprised:
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
_Gadianton
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Re: An evening with Daniel Peterson

Post by _Gadianton »

That's interesting, The Dude. You know, with all his credentials and learning, it's not like he'd just flip a switch off and not use his brain when he takes up his bigfoot research. So even though he isn't publishing his bigfoot research in a peer-reviewed journal, we can trust that the same standards of quality scholarship go into his bigfoot research that went into his phd dissertation --- am I right, apologists?
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_harmony
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Re: An evening with Daniel Peterson

Post by _harmony »

Bigfoot???? :rolleyes:

Oh, criminently! Stop it, you two! Now you've made me laugh, and my chest is killing me! (pneumonia and a torn rotator cuff will have that effect)

:lol:

And this is one of the important LDS scholars involved in Daniel's book?

Oh my, oh my!

Anything interesting on the others? (I'm waiting for the cold fusion guy, but that's probably a pipe dream.)
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: An evening with Daniel Peterson

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

harmony wrote:Bigfoot???? :rolleyes:

Oh, criminently! Stop it, you two! Now you've made me laugh, and my chest is killing me! (pneumonia and a torn rotator cuff will have that effect)

:lol:

And this is one of the important LDS scholars involved in Daniel's book?

Oh my, oh my!

Anything interesting on the others? (I'm waiting for the cold fusion guy, but that's probably a pipe dream.)



You've mocked the man, now let's see you show a flaw in his dna argument.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Trevor
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Re: An evening with Daniel Peterson

Post by _Trevor »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:You've mocked the man, now let's see you show a flaw in his dna argument.


I don't know about the rest of these guys, but I am tired of trying to prove negatives on stuff like this. Instead, I want substantive reasons why I should take the Book of Mormon seriously as an ancient text. As far as I am concerned, the standard of evidence has not been met. Find "Israelite DNA", whatever that's supposed to be, and I'll be impressed. Find any other evidence of ancient Christianity in America before the fifth century CE, and I'll take interest. Find an artifact that closely resembles Joseph Smith's description of the Gold Plates with their unusual characters, and I'll stop to check into it. Until then, what's the point in trying to disprove something that has never been proven to have existed in the first place? The standard of evidence is so idiosyncratic for the believers, that it is no wonder that few outside of the LDS and ex-LDS crowd give a toss.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_harmony
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: An evening with Daniel Peterson

Post by _harmony »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:You've mocked the man, now let's see you show a flaw in his dna argument.


Is it as good as his Bigfoot argument?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Trevor
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Re: An evening with Daniel Peterson

Post by _Trevor »

All I know is that when I saw the OP, I thought we would be treated to a salacious story about Dr. Peterson concocted by Mr. Scratch. You know, like something involving alcoholic beverages, someone's underage cousin, and tractor tipping. What a pleasant surprise (cough, disappointment) that it turned out to be something substantive (cough, boring) after all.

Just kidding.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
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