Is the World Better or Worse?

[_JAK]

Jersey Girl,

Your point is not only correct, it is important. “Poverty shoves you down.” It is a corollary. The system of law in most Western countries (certainly in the USA) is a system which favors the more wealthy over the less wealthy. As I mentioned, those who cannot afford a car (for example) are required to borrow money (if they want a car) and pay the bank or a car dealership. They pay not only the price on which they agreed, they also pay interest on the money they borrowed. Who gets the money?

Your analysis regarding people in poverty not knowing where to turn is most important. Poverty is not merely a matter of lack of money. It’s a lack of essential information. It’s a lack of knowledge about where reliable information can be secured. It’s a lack of access to good advice from those who are well suited to give such advice. Poverty denies individuals and families (or fractured families) access to information. It is not their fault necessarily. Many would like to dismiss the impoverished as merely lazy, stupid, or even worse, they really like to live as they do in poverty or on welfare. Well, that’s wishful thinking on the part of individuals who so stereotype those in poverty.

Our system of law does discriminate in favor of the more wealthy over the less wealthy. I cited some additional examples previously in this thread. I did so simply as a matter of describing how the American society has functioned.

An additional point about information. Getting information to those who lack it is a continuous problem. There are new people born into poverty every moment. The task of providing them with accurate and adequate information begins from their birth. Hence, education is not something which can be done once. It is required all the time and from birth to productive life and healthy life style. Some people seem to think that telling someone something once is sufficient. That’s an incorrect assessment as well. Often people have to be exposed to accurate information (even the same information) many times before it takes hold and is applied by individuals in meaningful, constructive ways.

The scrutiny you have provided is accurate and focused.

JAK

[_JAK]

I think for most there are large opportunities for the taking if someone will grab them.

Absolutely there are amazing opportunities. No question about this.

The problem is not opportunity it is helping people access them, and helping people see there is a better way.

Take a woman I recently spoke to. She wasliving in a very run down trailer but got kicked out and is basically on the street right now; she has no car, no computer, no education. She found a job (sort of) where she is paid minimally but can't afford a phone. Her pay is about enough to barely live. So, how is she supposed to get to DSS? How is she supposed to get anything? She has a low IQ and no support.

I think she is very typical of the people I see living in poverty. Those with a TV, cell phone, computer, and car are not, in my mind living in poverty.

~td~

TD,

You quote an interesting expression above. A factor here is that those who are in a position “grab them,” are those with access in the first place. If one lacks education and also lacks the means (wealth) to secure that education, his opportunity to “grab” anything of benefit is limited.

You have offered good example of someone who appears to have been denied access to the tools which would enable her to “grab” advantage.

There is a kind of official criteria for “poverty” in the USA. As a practical matter, people perceive poverty in ways outside the arbitrary, official criteria.

Those whose income has been reduced from a hundred million dollars (US) a year to ten million dollars a year feel most stressed and impoverished. Likewise, People who have been reduced from one million dollars a year to 200 thousand dollars also feel impoverished.

There is a tendency for those with greater net worth to look down on those with less. It happens at the level of millions and it happens at levels of thousands.

Many would agree with your assessment of poverty absence as you characterize at the end of your comment here.

JAK

[_asbestosman]

And yes really TD, some people don't want to do what it takes to change. That is a fact.

I'm not sure anyone disputes that. Is that fact relevant for helping the others?

Why do we need to hire illegals to take jobs some of our citizens won't.

There are probably a number of factors, but ultimately it's because enough illegals are willing to do the same work for less pay. Supply, demand, and all that. As to why our citizens aren't willing Old Testament work for that amount, it could be that they aren't in as dire a situation or it could be that they aren't aware of the opportunities, or it could be a number of other things.

Why would some rather be on welfare than take a job they think does not pay enough.

For some it could be because welfare pays more. Yeah, I think the welfare system has problems. Maybe it should be reserved for those who lack computers, cell phones, TVs, and cars.

Heck I would work just for my dignity.

Most healthy people would. It's hard to retain your physical and mental health when living in abject poverty.

Sure there are those so bound down by their circumstances that there is little hope and almost no way out. But I think this is a small minority.

That seems to be the crux of the disagreement between you and TD and Jersey Girl. First off I'm not sure how relevant percentages are. Would a different percentage of hopeless vs lazy poor change our welfare strategy? I'm not sure it should.

First off, you probably do more to help the poor than I ever will. I certainly don't begrudge you for living the American dream and hope to live it myself someday (although I am reasonably comfortable now).

All I'm saying is that when I hear about the cycle of poverty, I have a hard time knowing who to blame. Somtimes it's the individual, and sometimes it isn't. And sometimes (probably most of the time) it's a mix. I know in my own life there are times I don't work or study as well as I should. Somtimes it's due to stress in life (death, bullying, depression, etc.) and sometimes it's due to my own laziness (playing too many games), but usually it's a combination of things (I get depressed and then escape through gaming). I often could work harder when in depressed spirits, but I'm too busy with the depression to kick myself in the butt and work. If someone kicks it for me, I usually do okay. What's really killer though is that often times I'm the one responsibe for my own depressed mood.

When I think about myself, I don't deserve the help I've had. Sometimes kicking my butt is the answer. Somtimes restoring my self-confidence is the answer. Maybe that's the problem with poverty--there is no universal solution.

I think for most there are large opportunities for the taking if someone will grab them.

I quite agree. The problem is that grabbing them isn't particularly easy if your depressed as I suspect those in abject poverty likely are.

I don't believe that throwing more money at the problem is the solution. I'm not a fan of expanding government programs. I think in most things you and I agree and that you probably do a better job at living it than I do. Mostly I'm just trying to offer a different perspective.

[_The Dude]

Is the World Better or Worse?

"...the dark revelation of old age is that of the existence of absolute evil and of the essential pointlessness and tragedy of life on earth." -- Mick LaSalle (movie critic reviewing No Country for Old Men)

"Enjoy it all while you still can, 'cause any second it may end, and when it's all been said and done, you'd better say you had some fun." -- Danny Elfman/Oingo Boingo

x

x

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[_The Nehor]

Three Choices:

City of Zion, exact date unknown; Western hemisphere, Nephite Civilization, 33 A.D to 133 A.D.; Millenium, any hemisphere, Any time in that thousand year period.

If I die in childbirth, so be it.

Sorry, but even for the City of Zion, you can only specify the hemisphere.

Same for "Nephite Civilization". And Brant Gardner has theorized that the reports of peace and tranquility in that time frame are exaggerated, (and the geography likewise limited) to the point that it might not make much difference. And even given the utopian state of some of the people, would you still want to live in a time before penicillin?

Millenium = future, which only makes my point.

Your original post didn't specify had to be past. I'd live before penicillin to live in a city that God visits. Technology and advances haven't changed people that much. Demographically in this life I was born with privilege. U.S.A. upper-middle to upper class rearing with teaching of a strong work ethic and lots of educational opportunities and the Gospel of Christ. I won the lotto here.

On further reflection, I doubt I'd take the past. Mostly because I think the years ahead will be horrific and wonderful but above all, exciting.

[_Mister Scratch]

Your original post didn't specify had to be past. I'd live before penicillin to live in a city that God visits. Technology and advances haven't changed people that much. Demographically in this life I was born with privilege. U.S.A. upper-middle to upper class rearing with teaching of a strong work ethic and lots of educational opportunities and the Gospel of Christ. I won the lotto here.

On further reflection, I doubt I'd take the past. Mostly because I think the years ahead will be horrific and wonderful but above all, exciting.

So, The Nehor---

Are we to understand that this is your stab at a sincere, substantive post? Or, as you have claimed in the past, is this yet another of your popcorn-munching "joke" posts?

[_The Nehor]

Your original post didn't specify had to be past. I'd live before penicillin to live in a city that God visits. Technology and advances haven't changed people that much. Demographically in this life I was born with privilege. U.S.A. upper-middle to upper class rearing with teaching of a strong work ethic and lots of educational opportunities and the Gospel of Christ. I won the lotto here.

On further reflection, I doubt I'd take the past. Mostly because I think the years ahead will be horrific and wonderful but above all, exciting.

So, The Nehor---

Are we to understand that this is your stab at a sincere, substantive post? Or, as you have claimed in the past, is this yet another of your popcorn-munching "joke" posts?

I realize you're angry because I caught you admitting that you lie to manipulate people but there's no need to get upset. Still waiting for what you meant in that post as you insist you didn't mean what you said.

[_cinepro]

Your original post didn't specify had to be past.

The entire purpose of this thread is to discuss whether the world "is Better or Worse". I understood this to mean we are discussing whether the world as it currently stands is better or worse than it has been in the past. I stand by my contention that taken as a whole, the "world" is far, far better today than it has been at any time in the past. Sure, we can say that some time described in the scriptures was "better", but we must admit that sometimes the scriptures describe things with a little exaggeration, so without any ability to verify the exact scope and conditions of previous "zions", I'm reluctant to hold them as a comparison against our current "world".

If we are to consider the future, we should rephrase the discussion to consider whether "the world will be better or worse?". That's a different discussion (and I would agree that the future, especially the millennium, will probably be a lot better).

[_John Larsen]

If anyone disagrees, please tell me which hemisphere and century you would rather have lived in?

You only get to pick the hemisphere and era within 100 years. You would then be magically transported there and statistically assigned to a "life", with your gender, nationality, religion, physical condition and social class determined by the demographics of that era. You may end up being a king, but the odds are you'll end up shoveling manure. You will also be subject to infant mortality rates, with a chance that your experiment will end immediately.\

Three Choices:

City of Zion, exact date unknown; Western hemisphere, Nephite Civilization, 33 A.D to 133 A.D.; Millenium, any hemisphere, Any time in that thousand year period.

If I die in childbirth, so be it.

Don't forget Shambhala and Atlantis, they were pretty swell, too.

[_solomarineris]

There's no arguing about it; things are the way they are.

Destiny of humanity doesn't concern me much, even though I have alot at stake, my children grandchildren
will be here long after I'm gone.
I consider myself lucky, I might be one of the 7billion intelligent beings alive in whole Universe. I won the genetic lottery; few trillion trillion atoms happen to give me some intelligence, conscience so I could experience life like no other living being.
My progenitors are responsible of exterminating hundreds of thousands species, including Dodo birds. There were never more vicious living beings than us humans, we did not exterminate most other living beings for our own survival was threatened, we did this for sport, fun.
No, I don't feel guilty about it, I did not participate in any type of slaughter, except few dozen cows, pigs, hundred tonnes fish, crustaceans, countless chicken 10 million gallons of water, close to half million barrel of oil went to my personal consumption.

Most of humanity live under the same condition as viruses/ parasites function. They could be yours/mine children living at home, having no desire to move out, every traffic junction of the city I live are full of beggars, Home Depots, Lowes are swarming with illegal aliens. 70% of African population cannot sustain themselves without foreign food help.

Humanity is the biggest waste of intelligence this universe ever produced. We went to the Moon, greatest achievement in entire human history, we never looked back, instead in unison all of us fueled War Machines. The Space, science, exploration budget of United States never reached in any year more than 10% of Defense budget.

Personally I am very happy, I have everything in life and more. I am not grateful to anybody and I don't expect anybody having gratitude for me. I didn't do any more or less My progenitors, I am giving the planet what is given to me.

We are one strike away to sing Ave Maria, recite Hail Mary for few seconds before being vaporized by a Nuke or a wayward Asteroid. I hope it won't happen anytime soon.
I'm having a grand time.