F*** Religion.

[_Jersey Girl]

And why did you call Ray a nut? Seems like you were having a well balanced conversation then you attacked him.

When you have a moment, search on Ray's SN and take a look at his posts over the last oh, three days or so. He's been on an attack bender on the board and it wouldn't have mattered a damn in hell what marg stated, he's looking for targets and didn't have far to go in the first place.

If you give a crap about fairness, and I believe that you do, please do what I asked of you.

[_Ray A]

When you have a moment, search on Ray's SN and take a look at his posts over the last oh, three days or so. He's been on an attack bender on the board and it wouldn't have mattered a damn in hell what marg stated, he's looking for targets and didn't have far to go in the first place.

If you give a crap about fairness, and I believe that you do, please do what I asked of you.

I attack idiots, like you. Knowing how "fair" you are, you would not care to look at the majority of my posts to reasonable people. You and marg are just time wasting jokers on this board.

[_Ray A]

I look forward to your new blog essay. Let us/me know when it's ready for the public. I truly enjoy your matter-of-fact style of thinking and expressing your thoughts--no B.S....

I've already written 600 words Roger, but today I work an 18 hour shift and will be busy with work until next Wednesday morning. I'll hopefully have it finished by next Thursday or Friday, and I think that I may post it here as well as on my so far "Mormon free" blog. Or I may even just post it here to keep my blog "Mormon free". At this point I'm undecided.

[_marg]

Jersey Girl I doubt very much either Jason or Ray will look at Tom Donofrio's work on the link I posted previously. If you haven't already, take a look. It's very interesting. It basically shows that the Book of Mormon writer/writers read a number of history book dealing with the Am. Revolution and significantly copied lots of phrases from another author or authors.

Since only Spalding's Roman MS is available, Tom shows that Spalding borrowed extensively from Warren and it turns out Warren borrowed from David Ramsay. And he shows as well there are others the Book of Mormon author/authors borrow from.

I think given Smith's young age, given his lack of education, he was not noted for being an avid reader pre_BoM... and yet given that both Spalding and Rigdon (who was 37 years old in 1930 had read lots of books).both Spalding and Rigdon are far more likely candidates to have contributed to the Book of Mormon than Smith.

[_Jason Bourne]

Ok

Here is the deal. I will apologize to Marg. Reading back I misread her. I see she was referring to specific things the writing of the Book of Mormon and scribes. When Ray said he found Smith had written some profound things and Marg responded I thought she meant that he had never written much of anything at all and did not think she was referring to the specific issue of the Book of Mormon and scripture.

So, marg I apologize for jumping down your throat about this.

You may not think I add any substance but I can apologize when I make a mistake.

That is more than I see of many others.

And I still, as a general observation, think marg's breadth of knowledge about Mormonism is limited. I wonder is she has read anything neutral of favorable as far as arguments on the topic of the LDS Church. But I will grant you, that on the issue of Spalding theory, she is more well read than I.

[_Jason Bourne]

Jersey Girl I doubt very much either Jason or Ray will look at Tom Donofrio's work on the link I posted previously. If you haven't already, take a look. It's very interesting. It basically shows that the Book of Mormon writer/writers read a number of history book dealing with the Am. Revolution and significantly copied lots of phrases from another author or authors.

You are correct. I am not going to give time to the link you gave. There are a few reasons why. The first is I am already working through three papers on the Spalding theory. The first is the Criddle essay. I am about done with it and should have been long ago but life gets in the way at times. The next to read is Matt Roper's FARMS paper on the Spalding issues. The third will be the word study Jersey brought to my attention. These take precedence over your link. After I finish these three things if I have further interest in the topic then I may entertain things you reference.

[_Jersey Girl]

Jersey Girl I doubt very much either Jason or Ray will look at Tom Donofrio's work on the link I posted previously. If you haven't already, take a look. It's very interesting. It basically shows that the Book of Mormon writer/writers read a number of history book dealing with the Am. Revolution and significantly copied lots of phrases from another author or authors.

Since only Spalding's Roman MS is available, Tom shows that Spalding borrowed extensively from Warren and it turns out Warren borrowed from David Ramsay. And he shows as well there are others the Book of Mormon author/authors borrow from.

I think given Smith's young age, given his lack of education, he was not noted for being an avid reader pre_BoM... and yet given that both Spalding and Rigdon (who was 37 years old in 1930 had read lots of books).both Spalding and Rigdon are far more likely candidates to have contributed to the Book of Mormon than Smith.

You know what, marg, I think that's also on the MormonStudies website (where Craig's first essay is posted) and I've read it. In any case, I'm aware of it.

[_Jersey Girl]

Ok

Here is the deal. I will apologize to Marg. Reading back I misread her. I see she was referring to specific things the writing of the Book of Mormon and scribes. When Ray said he found Smith had written some profound things and Marg responded I thought she meant that he had never written much of anything at all and did not think she was referring to the specific issue of the Book of Mormon and scripture.

So, marg I apologize for jumping down your throat about this.

You may not think I add any substance but I can apologize when I make a mistake.

That is more than I see of many others.

And I still, as a general observation, think marg's breadth of knowledge about Mormonism is limited. I wonder is she has read anything neutral of favorable as far as arguments on the topic of the LDS Church. But I will grant you, that on the issue of Spalding theory, she is more well read than I.

Jason,

I didn't mean for you to apologize, just reconsider and take a look at the history of the thread before you jumped to a conclusion. Still, it's nice of you to apologize. :-)

I agree that marg's breadth of knowledge about Mormonism is limited, but what would you expect from her? She's non-religious engaging religious topics and that's even more of a stretch than my being here since I can at least identify with the religious/spiritual aspects of Mormonism. I have to say that she's all over the Spalding/Rigdon topic and I, having read her for years and knowing what little interest she has in religion, am really impressed. Over the years, I have watched her get a good grasp on the Bible (even though our views are not the same), on Christianity and Judaism, and now on the Book of Mormon authorship issue. I don't know why she took an interest. Maybe, like me, she likes putting the pieces of the puzzle together or imagining how things took place.

I have no clue. Color me clueless. :-D

[_marg]

Ok

Here is the deal. I will apologize to Marg. Reading back I misread her. I see she was referring to specific things the writing of the Book of Mormon and scribes. When Ray said he found Smith had written some profound things and Marg responded I thought she meant that he had never written much of anything at all and did not think she was referring to the specific issue of the Book of Mormon and scripture.

So, marg I apologize for jumping down your throat about this.

You may not think I add any substance but I can apologize when I make a mistake.

That is more than I see of many others.

And I still, as a general observation, think marg's breadth of knowledge about Mormonism is limited. I wonder is she has read anything neutral of favorable as far as arguments on the topic of the LDS Church. But I will grant you, that on the issue of Spalding theory, she is more well read than I.

Thanks Jason. by the way, I don't claim to be knowledgeable about Mormonism, I never have. Certain aspects I take an interest in.

One of the favorite and common tactics of those arguing on behalf of Mormonism against the opposition is to attack the knowledge level of Mormonism and expect details to be known. So the issue gets avoided and the focus shift to an attack on the person. Knowledge level can be a legitimate reason, but not all the time.

As far as Ray goes, he essentially used that tactic of brushing me off, by telling me to go read "such and such" when he could have simply said what books according to historian "so and so" said were in Smith's library and why he(RAy) thought Smith was good at writing scripture..in particular the Book of Mormon. In addition, quite frankly from my perspective he sounded like a very religious Mormon apologist for J. Smith yet he'd just previously written a post to me how non-religious he was..so from my perspective, he came across to me as sounding "nuts". His thought process seemed inconsistent.

[_marg]

[

You know what, marg, I think that's also on the MormonStudies website (where Craig's first essay is posted) and I've read it. In any case, I'm aware of it.

It's amazing stuff. I'd read it years ago, but didn't really pay much attention to it. But what he shows is that the Book of Mormon is modeled after written historical accounts describing the Am. Rev. War. It's so amazing it makes me want to read the Book of Mormon. And in fact, I have today had the Book of Mormon outside by the pool as one of the things to read today..so I did read a bit.

by the way,that mormonstudies.com is no longer there. That might have been T. Chandler's who Dale said removed his site.