Elections

[_Presbyter]

How is that not black and white? Either there are legitimate exceptions for abortion or there are not. Once again, it is not possible to find shades of grey. All is black and white. If you're seeing any grey at all, you're not digging deep enough into the problem and you don't have enough information to make a judgement.

BCSpace, what on earth do you think "black and white" and "shades of gray" means??

The Church is generally against abortions. But in some situations it's not so clear and so they encourage you to pray about it and consult your church leaders.

Under what radical redefinition of those terms do you consider that "black and white"?

[_bcspace]

I'm responding primarily to clarify that I do not regret my vote for Obama, nor am I considering "changing my vote" whatever that means to you, my friend.

Yes, that was presbyter. But that only identifies you as part of the problem.

I'm tired of politics being a game of party vs party, like Mad Comic's Spy vs Spy. We need compromise in this country if we are going to find and enact solutions that work. That's just how it is. The real world requires compromise.

Given the issues, there's nothing to compromise on. Obama and the Democrats, the people you supported, certainly didn't compromise when they pretended there were no alternatives to Obamacare....

In my life experience, I find a sure sign this is occurring, if not firmly entrenched in a man's soul, is when a person seems to see monsters everywhere they look. Critic, believer, republican, democrat, rich, poor, country, rock and roll...it's doesn't matter the position of the observer. What s/he describes has ceased to be a function of the objects reflecting light back to his/her eyes.

The people who have lost the light are those who don't stand for anything at all or stand for that which is in opposition to the Church. Whether it's diversity for it's own sake or the compromising of values for the sake of peace, it does not matter.

[_bcspace]

How is that not black and white? Either there are legitimate exceptions for abortion or there are not. Once again, it is not possible to find shades of grey. All is black and white. If you're seeing any grey at all, you're not digging deep enough into the problem and you don't have enough information to make a judgement.

BCSpace, what on earth do you think "black and white" and "shades of gray" means??

I think you would know if, to use the example given, you answer the question "Are there any legitimate exceptions for abortion?" If you say no, then you are done (except for proving your answer). If you say yes, then further black and white questions are required:

-Is the life of the mother a legitimate exception? Yes or no.
-Serious defects? Yes or No. (and if yes, you have to create a list of defects and identify them as yes or no)
-Rape?
-Incest?
- 6 weeks?
- 9 weeks?
etc.

Another question might be about each exception being in harmony with LDS doctrine, yes or no.

All is black and white.

[_Presbyter]

I think you would know if, to use the example given, you answer the question "Are there any legitimate exceptions for abortion?" If you say no, then you are done (except for proving your answer). If you say yes, then further black and white questions are required:

-Is the life of the mother a legitimate exception? Yes or no.
-Serious defects? Yes or No. (and if yes, you have to create a list of defects and identify them as yes or no)
-Rape?
-Incest?
- 6 weeks?
- 9 weeks?
etc.

All is black and white.

Again, do you know what "shades of gray" means?

Since none of those are universal rules applied to members, the Church's position isn't black and white.

[_bcspace]

While the Republican party certainly seems to fit the church better than the democratic party, I'm not convinced a Republican victory will change things much. It's still a country under a two party system in which change happens very slowly if at all. The fact that George Bush bailed out Wall Street and refused to enforce the border still upsets me even though the course of action I would have preferred to see will never happen under a two party system. That's discouraging because I don't think enforcing the border and refusing to socialize Wall Street are very radical views.

Well yes. The war is never over and this particular battle has not been won. The Republicans cannot repeal Obamacare but they can run interference and possibly starve it. They will have to take President in two years and hold on to their current gains. They now have more governorships in key electoral states which means they control redistricting that will affect elections for 10 more years to come. They will have to make it clear to the people that until Obama is removed, they can't undo his policies. The Democrats are still winning. They committed a minor sacrifice and are betting that a growing number of people benefiting from nationalized healthcare will vote their way. That is the slavery of the Democrats. Addict you, and then control you.

In the meantime, on the state level, we must roll back the assault on the electoral process itself and the Soros-funded assault on recalling and electing judges. This last is being sold as "judges should be above politics". The answer is that judges who are appointed and tenured are by definition, political appointees.

[_Kevin Graham]

Since the rationale is that a human life is being murdered during abortion, I think in order to avoid hypocrisy there should be no exceptions at all. As far as I can tell, the Catholics are the only ones who avoid this hypocrisy since they deem it a sin without exception.

I mean what is the logic in saying it is OK to murder a baby because not doing so puts the mother's life at risk? Does this mean a mother can sacrifice her child anytime she wants, so long as doing so saves her own life? If she strangles her daughter to death in order to save on oxygen, while trapped in a small room, is that not murder in the eyes of the Church?

And how does being a victim of rape Trump the crime of murder? It is illogical. The Mormon Church plays politics on this one just as it does every other controversial issue. The traditional Mormon racism was eventually tempered by society's complaints and eventually the restriction against homosexuals will be lifted as well. The Church has no integrity and it is clear God has nothing to do with its policies. It is just another corporation with its own hired PR dept doing all its dirty work and advising them on the next "revelation" that will make things easier for them.

[_bcspace]

Again, do you know what "shades of gray" means?

Yes. I gave illustration that I do and that it isn't real.

Since none of those are universal rules applied to members, the Church's position isn't black and white.

The Church's position is black and white. Either there are exceptions or not. there may even be exceptions to exceptions. You just have to make sure you drill down far enough. Do you know what "drill down" means? Black and white.

[_Molok]

Again, do you know what "shades of gray" means?

Yes. I gave illustration that I do and that it isn't real.

Since none of those are universal rules applied to members, the Church's position isn't black and white.

The Church's position is black and white. Either there are exceptions or not. there may even be exceptions to exceptions. You just have to make sure you drill down far enough. Do you know what "drill down" means? Black and white.

Keep digging, you might eventually get out of that hole yet.

By the way, what is the black and white answer to the question "is abortion murder?"

[_bcspace]

Since the rationale is that a human life is being murdered during abortion, I think in order to avoid hypocrisy there should be no exceptions at all. As far as I can tell, the Catholics are the only ones who avoid this hypocrisy since they deem it a sin without exception.

The problem with that is Catholics don't take agency into account. The LDS Church does seem to believe that a mother's agency is above the agency of a child's right to live in some cases. For example, does a woman choose to be raped?

The LDS Church does a better job I think, of taking all doctrine into account. Therefore, we are far more perfectly just and merciful because we actually understand what those mean.

[_bcspace]

The Church's position is black and white. Either there are exceptions or not. there may even be exceptions to exceptions. You just have to make sure you drill down far enough. Do you know what "drill down" means? Black and white.

Keep digging, you might eventually get out of that hole yet.

Because I know how to drill down, I am usually on the correct menu which performs the correct judgement and has the right answers. People who only see grey are like those executive secretaries who can't really operate and take advantage of all the functionality of MS Office or other useful software tools.

By the way, what is the black and white answer to the question "is abortion murder?"

See my previous post in response to KG.