If the church is not true, would you want to know?

[_thews]

Then read this:
http://mormonthink.com/

Regarding the OP, I've read many posts by Mormons who state outright that there isn't any evidence that can sway them from their testimony. Enuma has stated that he would believe a translation of the Kinderhook plates done by Joseph Smith knowing they were a hoax. That pretty much sums up the commitment to belief... it's true even if it's known to be untrue.

Bullpucky!

Did you ever consider that the "translation" (which is actually simply revelation), that he recieved was in reference to OTHER THINGS going on, such as the Book of Abraham, Book of Moses, etc.? Did you ever notice that what Joseph supposed "translated" of the Kinderhook plates bears remarkable resemblance to OTHER scripture recieved? Thus, did you ever think that either Joseph Scribe or Joseph himself simply made a temporary human mistake in what the Revelation actually applied to, hence why there is NOT A SINGLE mention or instance of anything about the Kinderhook plates immediately and forever after the supposed translation? And remember, the Kinderhood plates weren't known to be frauds for sometime still....

You make no sense whatsoever. If Joseph Smith looked at the Kinderhook plates and said "I have no idea what language this is" then he would be tellingthe truth. The FACT that he translated them to introduce another new platform (the story of the descendant of Ham), either solidifies the truth claims of Joseph Smith, or it solidifies Joseph Smith as a con man. Try making an argument that makes sense.

Kinderhook does nothing to the Church.....

Further, your "true, even though untrue" statement is complete malarky when it comes to Mormons. We DO NOT think that way. However, people like you do, no matter how much information we show you showing that you pervert and omit important facts like your moronic "Mormonthink" website, you STILL continue to believe your false ideology.

As you blather on about the facts you must rationalize under the pretense that you used to be an ex-Mo, there's no doubt reasons you chose to go back. You don't quote facts, don't answer questions, and your rhetoric calling people liberals as if that were an insult defines your inability to think for yourself.

Mormons are Mormon because each of us are "mini" Joseph Smiths.... We are people who see clearly all the doctrines of men mingled with the doctrines of God, all the man-made religions of the world, how said religious don't really practice and believe what the Bible in full states, etc. etc. Thus we are seekers of the absolute truth.... and we become Mormon because we have finally found it.

If you have so much truth on your side, then explain why you believe in Joseph Smith's magical seer stones he used out of a stove-pipe hat to bring you this "truth". Do you acknowledge Joseph Smith used his seer stones before the Book of Mormon to see treasure guardians? (insert an actual answer here).

[_thews]

A few years ago, I wished Uncle Dale good luck in his research about the Spaulding manucript, saying that if he can prove the Mormon church false, it would be a good thing because no one should believe a fraud.

So far he hasn't done it. But then again, no one has proven the LDS church false. I think that most Mormons regardless of how devastating it would be would want to know if the church was false.

You are so blind it's pathetic. UD attributes the 0.5% doubt he has regarding Joseph Smith use of seer stones to new evidence that hasn't been unearthed yet. UD states that since he wasn't there to witness Joseph Smith using his seer stones as a money-digger, he'll ignore the 99.5% certainty that can be derived if the facts that can be used are acknowledged.

You can read the slippery slope here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17687

[_thews]

If we had no hope, would we want to know everything is hopeless? The Church holds many truths beyond the foundational story, such as, it is better to care for one another than to not care.

More rationalization to justify belief in what you know to be untrue. Just because you believe it's somehow good is never going to make it true. Waste your life placing belief in a lie if you wish, but it won't make it true.

[_thews]

Why do you believe the Church is true? I would like to "save your soul" by converting you to agnosticism.

Basically I believe the Church is true because I honestly trust that God has gave me reason to believe it is true in the form of Him manifesting the truth of it to me. I simply can't deny the experiences I've had that go far beyond anything anyone has been able to critique as far as I've seen.

Stem... do you believe the church is true, or do you place belief in the people who told you the church is true and what to believe? Be objective... try Descartes' meditation. Throw everything you once believed out the window and start over using your own cognitive thought process. If something isn't true, it's meaningless. Prove to yourself that magic rocks placed in a stove-pipe hat are from God and this makes sense.

[_moksha]

If we had no hope, would we want to know everything is hopeless? The Church holds many truths beyond the foundational story, such as, it is better to care for one another than to not care.

More rationalization to justify belief in what you know to be untrue. Just because you believe it's somehow good is never going to make it true. Waste your life placing belief in a lie if you wish, but it won't make it true.

Waste is in the eye of the beholder. While struggling to uphold untruth may be wasteful, pursuing good is both worthwhile and desirable.

[Guest]

Waste is in the eye of the beholder. While struggling to uphold untruth may be wasteful, pursuing good is both worthwhile and desirable.

You're not feeling me moksha. Presenting your belief to the outside world which isn't true is a false witness. You may have your reasons for doing it, but they very God you're supposedly placing belief in is what's compromised. Example:

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/false-prophets.htm

2 Pet 2:1 [NIV] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Pet 2:2 [NIV] Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
2 Pet 2:3 [NIV] In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

While you continue to claim what's good in your opinion, you also evade a strong stance in what you believe to be true. Do you believe that Mormonism is true?

[_Euthyphro]

Despite how "righteous" atheists think they are, the good religious of the earth surpases them in spades in actual righteousness, not only in works but in spirit also. So, I put away my judgments[...]

A fantastic example of someone being unintentionally ironic.

[_moksha]

While you continue to claim what's good in your opinion, you also evade a strong stance in what you believe to be true. Do you believe that Mormonism is true?

I wish to plead the Huntsman defense.

[_Obiwan]

Despite how "righteous" atheists think they are, the good religious of the earth surpases them in spades in actual righteousness, not only in works but in spirit also. So, I put away my judgments[...]

A fantastic example of someone being unintentionally ironic.

Not at all.... Life is all about "judgment". However, judgment is to be wise.
It is perfectly exceptable to judge evil, and bad fruit. But, it is not acceptable to be judgmental of good fruits.

In other words, the bad fruits of anti-mormons and other kinds of bigots it's perfectly reasonable to be judgmental of. However, the righteous and good of the earth, it's not reasonable to be judgmental of. Those who are judgmental of the righteous of the earth are in fact serving evil, or the dark side of the force, rather than good, truth, and right.

Christ in Mark/Luke 9 made clear that his followers should not be judgmental of his other followers who were not "with them", and were as little children. He said to offend even these other little ones of his, it's better one hang a milstone around his neck and drown himself.

See, after becoming anti-mormon/anti-religion myself, after a long argument with a High Priest friend, I realized that I was starting to go down the path of evil. That, my condeming the good of the earth, was not only keeping my own cup full thus never able to learn and grow, but I was condeming the very things I most wanted to know and be, that is to know what is actually true, and to be the best person I could be, to be good. Star Wars is a wonderful story, for it teaches some great wisdom. Note how Anikin was a Jedi, then the moment he went to the dark side he started killing fellow Jedi. Sound familiar?

Anti-mormons are no longer on the side of light.... One doesn't have to embrace any or most of the ideology's on the side of light, but someone OF the light must never fight against the light. This decision of mine was the very decision that a couple of years later when I was actually ready and interested to know what really was the truth and facts of things, rather than my current judgments, made me able and open to see and understand more..... Because of my faith, more light and knowledge came..... literally. There was even a moment that a switch occured, that it all finally made sense, even though it seemed impossible to because of all the endless information to weed through. But a partical of faith, and miracles occur just like the scriptures and the prophets have taught. I trusted, if there was a God, that the answers would come, one way or another. But I was going to DO what was necessary to really know what really was the truth, if there was a true church on the earth, etc. And because of that faith, the answers came from the study. By study and by faith....

And understand, I wasn't engaging in a self-fullilling prophecy as anti's like to claim as a cop-out.... I was perfectly happy where I was, and was perfectly happy if there wasn't a true Church/way on the earth. I wasn't interested in feelings alone, I was interested in the absolute truth, no perception, opinion, etc., but the full and accurate story on every issue.

[_jon]

Stem, The Book of Abraham.

It is accepted, even by LDS Egyptologists (John Gee for example) that the Papyri that was discovered in the 60's and which is owned and held by the Church, is not the Book of Abraham.

The position then becomes - we don't have the right papyri.

If that is true, then the facsimilies that are contained within the papyri should also not be associated with the Book of Abraham. Except they are. They are printed, along with Joseph's translation of them, in every Pearl of Great Price.

So, how did the real facsimilies get mixed up with the wrong papyri?
Why is Joseph Smith's translation of the facsimilies not consistent with what Egyptologists now know them to mean?
Why are the facsimilies not of an age where they could have been written by Abraham's 'own hand on the papyri'?

Investigation into the Book of Abraham shows that Joseph Smith did this himself but pretended it was from God. The facts, make this conclusion is inescapable.

If the Book of Abraham is a fraud then Joseph was a fraud.
If Joseph is a fraud then the Church is not true.


Stem, conduct a thorough investigation into the Book of Abraham.
Look at all the credible sources of information, including the apologist arguments and establish the facts for yourself.