Without religion, so much beauty would be lost | DeseretNews

[_Hoops]

Thanks for reading my mind. Other than the pompous pretense of a "cultured" world view, that article was astonishingly empty. Like anything else, "art" is shaped by its historical and material situation. And while there were Christians involved in the abolition and civil rights movements, as well as in organizing medical charities, there were also all manner of agnostics and atheists as well. Not to mention the believers who also struggled a great deal against all those things.

It certainly was a mixed bag. Neither side can claim exclusivity on any of those things you mentioned. However, it was Northern Christians who gave the abolition movement it's moral punch.

[_Pollypinks]

Christians did not come out of the closet en masse during the civil rights movement, in fact, most churches in the south continued to ban blacks from entering their church. A friend of mine spent his teen years in the south when his parents relocated for work reasons, and that was the reason his entire family quite going to the Nazarene church. It was in the 60's, and he said blacks were still being hung in trees, right in prominent neighborhoods, and basically nobody cared. To this day, he cannot bring himself to go back to the south because of tortured memories. I think the christians really let us down during those times.

[_Phillip]

When religion held complete and total control over the populace, why do we refer to it as "the Dark Ages?"

I had the same sort of perception until I spent some time studying the period. The 'Dark Ages' (which by the way isn't a very popular term with serious historians) were a result of the collapse of the Roman imperial system in the Western Europe and the political and economic disruptions that followed. It was not caused by the success of Christianity, unless you believe like some pagan Romans did that the fall of Rome was a punishment sent by the jealous and offended Olympian gods. Contrast the fate of the equally Christian eastern part of the Empire which suffered less disruptions and was hence able to preserve more continuity with classical civilization. The Greco-Roman civilization itself, with all its acheivements, was a thoroughly religious society. The early Christians were often the ones who were accused of being 'atheists' by their pagan opponents.

And 'Dark Ages' is particularly inappropriate for the High and Late Middle Ages (1000AD-1500AD) which were a time of great intellectual, technological, and cultural creativity for Western Europe.

Not that I would prefer to live in the Middle Ages rather than the present. I like my material comforts and the magic of Google.

[_Phillip]

Wouldn’t we all agree that this world would probably be a very different place if Christianity or Islam or any major world religion never existed? Isn’t it more a question of identifying (as far as possible) the good and bad ‘fruits’ of any particular religion? Then we could form some sort of judgment about whether that religion on the whole has benefited or hurt humanity. Some religions could be seen as beneficial, others as destructive. The devil is, as always, in the details. Honest appraisal of the past by both the religious and non-religious is hard to come by though. And it’s difficult to get past one’s own biases or to disentangle the web of cause and effect.

[_KimberlyAnn]

Hoops, aren't you a Southern Baptist? That denomination was created expressly to support and defend the institution of slavery when the General Baptist Convention refused to license slaveholders as missionaries.

Here you can read Richard Furman's defense of slavery as divinely sanctioned.


And here is, in small part, one of John Wesley's many pleas to end slavery:

If therefore you have any regard to justice, (to say nothing of mercy, nor of the revealed law of GOD) render unto all their due. Give liberty to whom liberty is due, that is to every child of man, to every partaker of human nature. Let none serve you but by his own act and deed, by his own voluntary choice.--Away with all whips, all chains, all compulsion! Be gentle towards men. And see that you invariably do unto every one, as you would he should do unto you.

"O thou GOD of love, thou who art loving to every man, and whose mercy is over all thy works: Thou who art the father of the spirits of all flesh, and who art rich in mercy unto all: Thou who hast mingled of one blood, all the nations upon earth: Have compassion upon these outcasts of men, who are trodden down as dung upon the earth! Arise and help these that have no helper, whose blood is spilt upon the ground like water! Are not these also the work of thine own hands, the purchase of thy Son's blood? Stir them up to cry unto thee in the land of their captivity; and let their complaint come up before thee; let it enter into thy ears! Make even those that lead them away captive to pity them, and turn their captivity as the rivers in the south. O burst thou all their chains in sunder; more especially the chains of their sins: Thou, Saviour of all, make them free, that they may be free indeed!"

A Methodist,

KA

PS. The SBC, like many institutions, has risen above its past. Of course it no longer advocates slavery. The above post does point out differing historical Christian viewpoints on slavery. There were many denominational splits over the issue, not only among Baptists.

[_Hoops]

Hoops, aren't you a Southern Baptist?

No.

That denomination was created expressly to support and defend the institution of slavery when the General Baptist Convention refused to license slaveholders as missionaries.

It certainly was. Which is why I stipulated that NORTHERN Christians were the prime moral force in ending slavery.

PS. The SBC, like many institutions, has risen above its past. Of course it no longer advocates slavery.

Of course.

The above post does point out differing historical Christian viewpoints on slavery. There were many denominational splits over the issue, not only among Baptists.

There were, indeed, differing points of view. But your post seems to imply that there was a mish-mash of views with none of them really coming to the fore. I don't think that was the case. The slave holding Christian was a minority view.

That's not what you're saying is it?

[_Pollypinks]

We can play semantics all we want, but the south really was key in the atrocious treatment of blacks, and just the fact that they bristle at the notion that anyone questions their "heros" from The Civil War, and they hang their own flag, really leads one to wonder what kind of mores went into building and maintaining the southern states view of themselves.

[_Hoops]

We can play semantics all we want, but the south really was key in the atrocious treatment of blacks, and just the fact that they bristle at the notion that anyone questions their "heros" from The Civil War, and they hang their own flag, really leads one to wonder what kind of mores went into building and maintaining the southern states view of themselves.

If this is directed at me, I have no idea what this means.

If this is not directed at me, please carry on.

[_Pollypinks]

It wasn't directed at anybody in particular. Christians many times seem to be under the guise that they helped the civil rights movement along. Certain christian people, or groups may have, but as a whole, they did not. Southern christians did not even allow blacks to enter their churches after the laws had been changed. So those of us who align ourselves with christianity need to know that criminal things were going on in our churches concerning segregation long after it had supposedly changed. And we still have the christian separatists with us today. They are a bit on the dangerous side, because they carry on with John Birch philosophies at the same time, claiming them to be christian.

[_Hoops]

Christians many times seem to be under the guise that they helped the civil rights movement along.

They did.

Certain christian people, or groups may have, but as a whole, they did not.

I don't know what this means. "Certain groups may have, but as a whole..."? I don't know what you mean. There was no whole. Many Christians were the moral force behind abolition. It was not exclusively Christian, nor was the Christian community unified (sadly), but one cannot forcefully argue that Christians were not the driving force.

Southern christians did not even allow blacks to enter their churches after the laws had been changed.

Some, yes. But not all. Specificity is required here.

So those of us who align ourselves with christianity need to know that criminal things were going on in our churches concerning segregation long after it had supposedly changed.

Why?

And we still have the christian separatists with us today. They are a bit on the dangerous side, because they carry on with John Birch philosophies at the same time, claiming them to be christian.

Sorry, I just don't see this roving band of conservative Christians shredding the constitution, the flag, and apple pie. I know that's the convenient claim, but it's illusionary.