Speaking of Paul H. Dunn...

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

It would be interesting to know, although probably impossible to determine, just exactly how much of the average TBM's testimony is based on false faith-promoting stories and rumors. Stuff like the zone meeting in the twin towers on 9/11 when all the missionaries were delayed and none harmed in the attack; like the story of Joseph Smith' prophecy of a meteor shower; stuff like "save the birdies" ... it never ends. Any so-called Truth that needs all these stupid lies to prop it up can't really be the Truth, can it?

[_why me]

Dunn was not perfect. So move on. We are all imperfect. What was in his heart at the time? We will never know. But I forgive him for being human. He is a model for us all because he made mistakes as a human being. No one is perfect. We all come up short and we all have faults. Move on.

[_why me]

And if I ever found out that those speakers lied to me about their experiences, I would feel devastated. I would wonder why it was that they felt like the truth was not enough to nurture my faith, why they felt like God's message needed the assistance of lies and half-truths---as if His arm was too short to reach us. I would question how much they really believed in the message they preached to think lies and half-truths would be edifying in the long run.

.

Be prepared to be devastated. We are all human beings and we make mistakes. Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggart, the african-american protestant bishop etc etc. Put your faith in no human being because if you do, you will feel devastated eventaully.

[_why me]

My feeling is that what Paul Dunn did is unforgiveable; but that is not the right word.

Inexcusable.

That's what I think it is.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

And yet, very human. And that should be a relief for us all.

[_Buffalo]

My feeling is that what Paul Dunn did is unforgiveable; but that is not the right word.

Inexcusable.

That's what I think it is.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

And yet, very human. And that should be a relief for us all.

I was super relieved when I first read about the Enron scandal. Whew! At least Kenneth Lay is human!

[_Morley]

And yet, very human. And that should be a relief for us all.

Were we in danger of thinking that Paul Dunn had somehow become a god? Why the hell should it be a relief to find out that someone is a jerk?

[_Jonah]

What was in his heart at the time? We will never know.

I seriously doubt that Dunn received NOTHING for the 50+ books he wrote, tapes, speaking appearances, endorsements, etc. True, we may never know what was in his heart at the time, but I have a pretty good idea what was in his pocket...filthy lucre. Yes, we are all imperfect. Yes, we all have faults. No, we all have not profited from such. Once exposed, how much did he give back?

Put your faith in no human being because if you do, you will feel devastated eventually.

Been there, done that. Joseph Smith and every "prophet" in my lifetime. 'Nuff said.

[_sock puppet]

And yet, very human. And that should be a relief for us all.

Were we in danger of thinking that Paul Dunn had somehow become a god? Why the hell should it be a relief to find out that someone is a jerk?

I don't think Dunn was thought to be a god, but his stories made him nearly super-human. It would have been natural for many listeners caught in the emotional rapture of the moment to later reflect and become depressed, feeling that they do not measure up well to Dunn. Dunn's stories tried to hoist himself on a petard so that he would receive the adoration of others, quite a stroking of his ego--at the expense of others.

It is a bit of a relief for many that might not have good self-esteem that the rod against which they measure themselves is not as long as Dunn tried to claim for so many years, through so many stories.

[_sock puppet]

Put your faith in no human being because if you do, you will feel devastated eventually.

Been there, done that. Joseph Smith and every "prophet" in my lifetime. 'Nuff said.

Everyone that does anything because it is taught by Mormonism is putting his or her faith in human beings, the Mormon leadership. That's why the inconsistencies and problems, even the foibles, of JSJr (their progenitor) are relevant, most relevant.

[_Yoda]

The scandal with Paul Dunn happened when I was a very young girl, long before I had any interest in the LDS church. As such, I have no personal feelings regarding Dunn. I feel no sense of betrayal or loss over what happened with him.

But I have heard many amazing talks from evangelical speakers, some of which contained testimonies of miraculous events or incredible rehabilitations from dark circumstances. I have felt moved and awed and experienced the power of the Holy Spirit through their words.

And if I ever found out that those speakers lied to me about their experiences, I would feel devastated. I would wonder why it was that they felt like the truth was not enough to nurture my faith, why they felt like God's message needed the assistance of lies and half-truths---as if His arm was too short to reach us. I would question how much they really believed in the message they preached to think lies and half-truths would be edifying in the long run.

If there is anything that I have learned from studying religious history, it is that half-truths and embellishments and fabrications are no soil for genuine faith. Real life is not always glamorous, it is not always pretty, it is not always easily presented as a faith-promoting narrative, but it is the firmest place to grow faith because it is real. And when faith is grown there, no amount of uncomfortable surprise information can shake it because it is real. You may not always find faith-promoting accounts there with the ease and frequency with which Dunn crafted his narratives, but when you do find it, it is absolutely exhilarating because of its realness. Faith like that is compelling and powerful. Faith that can only survive on fabrications and embellishments and half-truths is not real faith at all, it is brittle and dull and impotent.

The other problem with doing what Dunn did is that it calls attention to the possibility that other accounts of miraculous events are likewise embellished. If Dunn did it in the 20th century, who's to say that Joseph Smith didn't do it in the 19th century? That the apostles did not do it in the first century? How many of the miracles of Christ were later embellishments and fabrications by well-meaning followers?

I don't believe that any of them were, and I reject the prophetic claims of Joseph Smith for reasons that have zero to do with Paul Dunn. But Liz---I'm sorry, I could never do what you've done and shrug off Dunn's actions because he was a nice guy and his lies were told with good intentions. Lies don't stop being harmful just because they're told with good intentions, and lies told from the position of power and trust of an ecclesiastical leader are some of the most harmful around.

P. S. --- If the material I have read concerning Lynn Packer is accurate, what happened to him was deplorable.

I agree with the statement about lies being harmful when you are referring to a private counseling situation. I just think that too much is being made of his aggrandizement of things from the pulpit.

Of course, part of my view comes from the fact that I believe the LDS Church to have the same man-made elements as many other churches. I don't view it as the "one, true Church". I DO view the LDS Church as a positive organization which preaches the gospel of Jesus Christ. However, I think that, over the years, it has fallen victim to man-made mistakes, just like other churches in the world have. This is part of my NOM philosophy that I get beat up for all the time by both sides of the aisle. But, guess what? It's the only way I was able to deal with my personal crisis of faith. There are elements of the gospel, such as polygamy, and various pieces of Church history that I have never been able to reconcile, or be at complete peace with. Allowing myself to segment what works for me is how I am able to maintain my membership in the Church, and keep peace with my family. If people don't like it, they can lump it.