The "Final Solution"?

[_CaliforniaKid]

How do you define 'good'? and 'harm'?

Imagine a parallel universe in which Mormonism does not exist, and the 5-13 million would-be Mormons are distributed among the other religions at the average national rates. (26% evangelical, 40% mainline Protestant or Catholic, 16% unaffiliated, etc.) On the positive side, there would be more Democratic voters, fewer Utah suicides, and fewer science deniers. On the negative side, there would be significantly lower rates of voluntarism, charitable giving, happiness, voter turnout, green jello, classic South Park episodes, and Broadway musicals. And probably higher rates of violent crime, though I haven't looked closely enough into the statistics on that to be sure. On balance? Well, it's hard to weigh those variables against each other. But in the main, I think that parallel universe would look a lot like this one. If anything, maybe a touch worse.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey Paul

The whole Bible is founded upon murder and cultish rites soaked in blood rituals. It's pure evil. It's all about death and obedience to the cult. It's about putting those to death who disobey. Stone them!

Paul O

Now that strikes me as a very fair and balanced view of the entire Bible.

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Dr. Shades]

3. Free entertainment,. . .

Church is entertaining??

. . . reason to dress up, . . .

If you really want to get dressed up that badly, then you don't need church in order to do it.

. . . get kids to sit quietly on Sunday

If getting them to sit quietly is so important, can't you just do that at home?

4. "Forcing" a lot of people to be frugal with their discretionary funds

Wouldn't 10% more income be better than that?

5. Constant reminders to go home teaching

How on earth is that a good thing?

Your list confuses me.

[_zeezrom]

CK,

Our office of 100 people used to have charity competitions with our other U.S. offices. The Utah office would never do well compared to the others. I remember thinking, "I already pay fast offering and 10% of my gross income to charity, so I guess it's okay to pass on this."

Are Mormons more charitable than other folks? I think they tend to pay more to their religion. I can't say who is more charitable.

[_Shulem]

I'm gonna throw out the first things that came to mind when I first saw this:

1. A place for families with lots of kids to hang with instantly-made friends.
2. Keep people from being too deviant (?)
3. Free entertainment, reason to dress up, get kids to sit quietly on Sunday
4. "Forcing" a lot of people to be frugal with their discretionary funds
5. Constant reminders to go home teaching

I'm being sincere with this list. It truly is what came to mind.

Let me revise your list just a bit:

1. A place for families with lots of kids to hang with instantly-made ASSIGNED friends.
2. Keep people from being too deviant DON'T MASTERBATE (?)
3. Free entertainment, reason to dress up, get kids to sit quietly on Sunday AND NOD OFF
4. "Forcing" a lot of people to be frugal with their discretionary funds TITHING HURTS
5. Constant reminders to go home teaching NUMBERS

Paul O

[_RayAgostini]

That's all? Hell, what about the rest of the sorry ass Old Testament? Abraham about to murder his poor little boy? And Moses committing murder and treason against the Egyptian state? How about that? The whole Bible is founded upon murder and cultish rites soaked in blood rituals. It's pure evil. It's all about death and obedience to the cult. It's about putting those to death who disobey. Stone them!

I don't see this in Christianity.

1Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. (John 8:1-11)

[_zeezrom]

Dr. Shades and Paul,

I'm on my iPhone and in the middle of stuf- can't really address your comments. I agree the list is bad. I'm just sayin that's what came to mind. If you felt you might have to go back, would you not stretch it to find the good?

[_Shulem]

I don't see this in Christianity.

Well, that was a nice story and Jesus was changing things up a bit for the new-cult-order. But don't be fooled. When he returns again in a cloud of fire he is going to toast all the goats on his left hand and slay them all. Millions upon millions are going to be butchered by his sword. That's what the Bible says.

That's murder on a grand scale. And how dare him kill me just because I'm gay and worthy of death like his sorry ass apostle St. Paul said!

When Jesus comes back, you best be hiding too, Ray.

Paul O

[_RayAgostini]

Well, that was a nice story and Jesus was changing things up a bit for the new-cult-order. But don't be fooled. When he returns again in a cloud of fire he is going to toast all the goats on his left hand and slay them all. Millions upon millions are going to be butchered by his sword. That's what the Bible says.

That's murder on a grand scale. And how dare him kill me just because I'm gay and worthy of death like his sorry ass apostle St. Paul said!

So you think Jesus/God is going to judge you on your "sexual orientation"? If it's biological/inherited (which I believe it is), I don't I don't see how he can. More important, in my view, is how you treat others, and how much patience and tolerance you exhibit.

When Jesus comes back, you best be hiding too, Ray.

Paul O

I'm acutely aware of my own personal failings. I may well have to hide from the Justice of God, but I also believe in his mercy, and a fair judgement:

15 And again, to some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know the differences of administration, as it will be pleasing unto the same Lord, according as the Lord will, suiting his mercies according to the conditions of the children of men.(D&C 46)

So don't give up, Paul, because you are a "child of God", who (God) is going to look far beyond your "sexual orientation". Be kind, and if you don't want to be harshly judged, then don't harshly judge others.

[_Shulem]

OK, Ray -- fair enough. I'm not going to let organized religion or scriptures bother me. I'm living my life to the fullest and that's the best and final solution.

Paul O