A thunderingly obtuse question...

[_Alfredo]

Perhaps you should make a point first.

Already have, but I'll spell it out for you.

The reason I asked for the first act of faith was to subvert the only religiously satisfying response to the question: To fallaciously presuppose faith.

It seems like a very simple question, the answer must be God... but critical thinkers will realize that every imaginable reason one might suppose God is superior to the Devil, is a reason which presupposes faith that God is superior.

The point is that any "obvious answer" is clearly an illusion of fallacious logic.

If you disagree, then please explain... why faith in one supernatural paradigm and not another?

If your only answer is to presuppose God is superior... why could you not just as simply presuppose faith in a paradigm of which the Devil is superior?

It's no surprise that once you accept the preferred paradigm, you accept its method of interpreting the question and all evidence. The trouble is without fallaciously presupposing one of paradigms we're choosing from, we lack the religious ideas and interpretations required to explain the evidence in any religiously satisfying way. We're left with any number of supernatural explanations and no paradigm to choose between them.

This is what the question forces us to consider and I've yet to be offered a response which addresses the question properly.

[_Nightlion]

To make your question reasonable in the least you need to establish that God and the Devil are even comparable. You need to show that it is possible for the devil to rival or surpass God.
You ask to much for us to give that up.

God:
First and Only Cause using the medium of Light and Truth to create all things.

Devil:
An organized intelligence brought forth from the Light of Truth by the command of God. He remains only an organized intelligence who rebelled and sought to take God's honor and power. (Just wanting to rob God does not somehow make you equal to God.)
Nothing about the devil can be reliable as he is a liar. All he can say is: Believe it not.

As we look over the wide expanse of the Universe and see God moving in his majesty and power and then comprehend to smallest particle and creature that God has made we conclude that there is no being to rival God. What has the devil claimed to have done?

You question is absurd.

To even find the devil or look upon him for substance we go where and do what exactly?

Has it ever been written or spoken that the devil did anything of note more than boast?

Your question is a vacant as comparing God with your mom's crumb cake. No?

[_Alfredo]

Your question is a vacant as comparing God with your mom's crumb cake. No?

You entirely miss the point of suggesting that the Devil is ruler of the universe. I'll make it even simpler for you...

Suppose two possibilities:

1. God is ruler of the universe, therefore everything is a part of God's plan.
2. Satan is ruler of the universe, therefore everything is a part of Satan's plan.

The question considers both possibilities. To suggest that 2 can't be true because it contradicts 1 fallaciously presupposes 1.

It only seems to be an absurd question after you beg the question. Your descriptions of God and the Devil presupposes what we're debating. I could just as easily mirror your response by presupposing 2 instead of 1 and your particular descriptions of God and the Devil are just lies in Satan's plan. Following your reasoning, 1 is false because it contradicts 2.

Only by removing ourselves from any presuppositions concerning 1 or 2 can we see that the question has no satisfying answer. The only ideas or interpretations that can discern between them are useless until after you establish one and not the other. There is no evidence you can offer which can be interpreted as being explained by only choice and not the other.

...and that's because they're both designed to fool you and keep your reasoning trapped in a self-serving loop.

Each paradigm magically explains away any possible evidence by changing the way you approach and interpret the evidence... but that's the trouble with comparing two paradigms who want all the interpretive power. They're entirely self-serving. They presume no valid interpretations but their own, so what interpretations are we left to work with when those paradigms are called into question?

[_Nightlion]

Your question is a vacant as comparing God with your mom's crumb cake. No?

You entirely miss the point of suggesting that the Devil is ruler of the universe. I'll make it even simpler for you...

Suppose two possibilities:

1. God is ruler of the universe, therefore everything is a part of God's plan.
2. Satan is ruler of the universe, therefore everything is a part of Satan's plan.

The question considers both possibilities. To suggest that 2 can't be true because it contradicts 1 fallaciously presupposes 1.

It only seems to be an absurd question after you beg the question. Your descriptions of God and the Devil presupposes what we're debating. I could just as easily mirror your response by presupposing 2 instead of 1 and your particular descriptions of God and the Devil are just lies in Satan's plan. Following your reasoning, 1 is false because it contradicts 2.

Only by removing ourselves from any presuppositions concerning 1 or 2 can we see that the question has no satisfying answer. The only ideas or interpretations that can discern between them are useless until after you establish one and not the other. There is no evidence you can offer which can be interpreted as being explained by only choice and not the other.

...and that's because they're both designed to fool you and keep your reasoning trapped in a self-serving loop.

Each paradigm magically explains away any possible evidence by changing the way you approach and interpret the evidence... but that's the trouble with comparing two paradigms who want all the interpretive power. They're entirely self-serving. They presume no valid interpretations but their own, so what interpretations are we left to work with when those paradigms are called into question?

Man, face it, you got no point. All credence depends on your invented myth that God and the devil are equal and to deny that equality is to choose presumptuously. Just a dumb jumble puzzle. Where is the provenance that the devil accounts for anything? I doubt even the Satanic Bible gives the devil creation of the universe status.

The devil started the war in heaven to steal the honor and glory of God. God held all the resources and the devil coveted them. So he incited a war to try and take them by force.
This did not make him God's rival nor his equal. Just his enemy. An enemy who can be dismissed by the word of God's power. How equal is that for an option?

[_Alfredo]

Man, face it, you got no point. All credence depends on your invented myth that God and the devil are equal and to deny that equality is to choose presumptuously. Just a dumb jumble puzzle. Where is the provenance that the devil accounts for anything? I doubt even the Satanic Bible gives the devil creation of the universe status.

The devil started the war in heaven to steal the honor and glory of God. God held all the resources and the devil coveted them. So he incited a war to try and take them by force.
This did not make him God's rival nor his equal. Just his enemy. An enemy who can be dismissed by the word of God's power. How equal is that for an option?

I'm sorry, Nightlion. You dismiss my argument, but it's not clear at all that you understand it. The details are really unimportant. What's important is that one particular sort of Mormon God is not the only explanation for spiritual experience. The number of possible supernatural explanations for our experiences is limitless.

Again, these are only two possibilities:

1. God is ruler of the universe, therefore everything is a part of God's plan.
2. Satan is ruler of the universe, therefore everything is a part of Satan's plan.

Still, your responses show that you fail to understand the question. I'm not asking you to choose between God and the Devil as 1 interprets it. What you explained about the Devil and the War in Heaven doesn't disprove 2 because 2 can explain it.

Instead, I'm asking you to choose between 1 and 2 without presupposing either.

Your response presupposed 1, again. So, I ask you... again.

If you presuppose 1 to disprove 2, what prevents presupposing 2 to disprove 1?

Here's my theory, again, on why you can't answer the above question. 1 and 2 are both self-serving and all-encompassing paradigms. They each explain all evidence and they each prefer their own explanations for all evidence. Accepting "the Devil has a plan for everything" or "God has a plan for everything" is using the same bad logic on different subjects. You can't answer the question, because you would have to disprove your own paradigm with evidence that is uniquely explained by 1 and not 2, which is impossible.

So, I don't see what you want me to face. There's nothing you've offered that directly address my argument. Maybe you should formally lay out what specific issue you have with the argument itself? Follow the line of reasoning and show me where 1+1=3.

[_thews]

It seems like a very simple question, the answer must be God... but critical thinkers will realize that every imaginable reason one might suppose God is superior to the Devil, is a reason which presupposes faith that God is superior.

The point is that any "obvious answer" is clearly an illusion of fallacious logic.

If you disagree, then please explain... why faith in one supernatural paradigm and not another?

Again, your logic is flawed. If you actually believe in Satan as ruler of the universe, then what guidance has Satan given you? What doctrine? If you are talking about Satan in the Bible, then you can't have Satan without God. Critical thinkers would discount the question as invalid. To Descartes' argument that God may be an evil demon, that makes sense because the evil demon isn't defined. You define God vs. Satan in the question, so you can't have one without the other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon

The evil demon, sometimes referred to as the evil genius, is a concept in Cartesian philosophy. In his 1641 Meditations on First Philosophy, René Descartes hypothesises the existence of an evil demon, a personification who is "as clever and deceitful as he is powerful, who has directed his entire effort to misleading me." The evil demon presents a complete illusion of an external world, including other minds, to Descartes' senses, where in fact there is no such external world in existence. The evil genius also presents to Descartes' senses a complete illusion of his own body, including all bodily sensations, when in fact Descartes has no body. Most Cartesian scholars opine that the evil demon is also omnipotent, and thus capable of altering mathematics and the fundamentals of logic.[1][2]

[_Alfredo]

Again, your logic is flawed. If you actually believe in Satan as ruler of the universe...

How are you still missing the point... I'm not trying to prove that Satan is ruler of the universe. Did you read the entire post? How about you read my last few posts to Nightlion, as well.

I don't know how the universe would work if the Devil were in charge. All I know is that anything which suggested that the Devil wasn't in charge would be a trick. It's as simple as that. Very much like the "evil demon", but with a Christian flavor.

Like I told Nightlion, I am considering two possibilities:

1. God is ruler of the universe, therefore everything is a part of God's plan.
2. Satan is ruler of the universe, therefore everything is a part of Satan's plan.

Notice that 2 doesn't require that God exists. Notice that 2 could still be true if something you called "God" existed, but wasn't actually God as popularly defined.

Get over the details of each paradigm and address the argument.

[_ludwigm]

... you need to establish that God and the Devil are even comparable. You need to show that it is possible for the devil to rival or surpass God.

[_Nightlion]

Okay, Numbskull, I choose 2. Now show me how Satan's plan accounts for anything..................................................?...........................................?

See? You got nothin'!

[_ludwigm]

Numbskull

I like this site, because (as a miserable non-native-english) I can learn new, usable words day by day.