Just read the 100-page hit piece on Dehlin . . .

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_Droopy
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Re: Just read the 100-page hit piece on Dehlin . . .

Post by _Droopy »

the narrator wrote:
What straws, what camel, and who's?


Straws - frustrations with DCP's differing vision of the MI. Camel - the differing vision. Who's - Bradford and the MI.


No, that doesn't quite do it for me. The entire active founding membership and present apologetic team at NAMI was suddenly purged. Daniel, Midgley etc were NAMI. NAMI was conceived, founded, and structured as a scholarly institute for the defense of the Church and the articulation of its principles, not a doctrinally and philosophically neutral secular religious studies body. There are already loads of those.

Bradford clearly doesn't want to do apologetics at all, or even be in the same room with it, which is odd in the extreme, for a Latter day Saint.

In any case, at this juncture you don't appear to be supporting the narrative of your apostate critic friends in this forum regarding the Dehlin-Samualson-Bradford linkage leading to the MI purge, which is something in your favor.

Associates of the MI who are intimately aware of what happened. I'm not naming names so don't ask. I don't care whether or not you believe me. Just know that unlike DCP, I haven't been shown to be a repeated liar.


And I've long understood that, like those apostate friends, you share a number of their core perspectives.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_the narrator
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Re: Just read the 100-page hit piece on Dehlin . . .

Post by _the narrator »

Droopy wrote:
No, that doesn't quite do it for me. The entire active founding membership and present apologetic team at NAMI was suddenly purged. Daniel, Midgley etc were NAMI. NAMI was conceived, founded, and structured as a scholarly institute for the defense of the Church and the articulation of its principles, not a doctrinally and philosophically neutral secular religious studies body. There are already loads of those.


I don't care what does anything for you. The current administration of the MI (and Bradford is not alone) had a different vision of the MI. The old guard had become stale and prevented the MI from getting more new life.

Droopy wrote:Bradford clearly doesn't want to do apologetics at all, or even be in the same room with it, which is odd in the extreme, for a Latter day Saint.


Says who? I hear a bunch of chatter about this but have seen no source for such a claim. This claim seems to come from DCP and his pal Hamblin who are bitter and have repeatedly lied about the situation at the MI. To the contrary, it is my understanding that Bradford and others at the MI realize that much of the scholarship they produce will inevitably be apologetic. They are not against apologetics in whole but are rather against much of the poor polemical apologetics that Peterson et al had been producing the last several years.[/quote]



Droopy wrote:In any case, at this juncture you don't appear to be supporting the narrative of your apostate critic friends in this forum regarding the Dehlin-Samualson-Bradford linkage leading to the MI purge, which is something in your favor.


There are only two persons on this board that I would consider friends: MsJack and Chris Smith-hardly apostates. As for me, if my bishop and stake president find me worthy for a temple recommend (which I renewed last month) and to be a Sunday school teacher (which I taught today), then I think I would hardly count as an apostate.

I know nobody else on this board--and in fact I "defriended" Kevin several months ago for being a putz and accusing me of being a blind apologist.

Associates of the MI who are intimately aware of what happened. I'm not naming names so don't ask. I don't care whether or not you believe me. Just know that unlike DCP, I haven't been shown to be a repeated liar.


And I've long understood that, like those apostate friends, you share a number of their core perspectives.


Are you calling those currently in the MI apostate?
You're absolutely vile and obnoxious paternalistic air of intellectual superiority towards anyone who takes issue with your clear misapprehension of core LDS doctrine must give one pause. - Droopy
_Droopy
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Re: Just read the 100-page hit piece on Dehlin . . .

Post by _Droopy »

I don't care what does anything for you. The current administration of the MI (and Bradford is not alone) had a different vision of the MI. The old guard had become stale and prevented the MI from getting more new life.


No Loyd, there have a distinctly secularist, rationalist/positivist flavor to what Bradford wants to do, which shows up succinctly in some of Bradford's other essays at MI, as well as his statement at Mormon Scholars Testify. Its a flavor he mixes fluently with the gospel, but not enough to mask the taste of the reason or faith, apologetics or scholarship bias he and his associates have introduced.

Droopy wrote:Bradford clearly doesn't want to do apologetics at all, or even be in the same room with it, which is odd in the extreme, for a Latter day Saint.

Says who?



Says me.

I hear a bunch of chatter about this but have seen no source for such a claim.


http://mormonscholarstestify.org/2508/m-gerald-bradford

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... m=1&id=640

Read these thoroughly, Loyd. The core psychological and philosophical elements that have led to his behavior regarding the MI and its founding members are easily discernible throughout both these essays.

This claim seems to come from DCP and his pal Hamblin who are bitter and have repeatedly lied about the situation at the MI.


You're now even beginning to talk like Scratch and Graham, and you bring railing accusation against your brethren in the Church with the same self assured abandon, a sure sign that where I suspected you were heading, years ago, was not at all off the mark.

To the contrary, it is my understanding that Bradford and others at the MI realize that much of the scholarship they produce will inevitably be apologetic.


That's not what I get from his own written words on the subject.

They are not against apologetics in whole but are rather against much of the poor polemical apologetics that Peterson et al had been producing the last several years.


I don't know what you're talking about - and neither do you. This is all of a piece with the emerging narrative of the NOM/Neo-Orthodox intellectual set who fancy themselves a new emerging philosopher king class among the LDS intelligentsia and the Church's membership (as the September Six and the core of apostate intellectuals gathered around Signature Books do) who are in awe of their own reflections. No good will come to the Church in all of this, of course, as this is all an exercise in the flattery of the intellectual egos of a small but apparently powerful group of LDS intellectuals who wish to mediate a process of accommodation between the Church and the surrounding secular culture.

Joanna Brooks, another key example of this kind of intellectual, is indicative of just where this tendency leads, if unchecked.

There are only two persons on this board that I would consider friends: MsJack and Chris Smith-hardly apostates. As for me, if my bishop and stake president find me worthy for a temple recommend (which I renewed last month) and to be a Sunday school teacher (which I taught today), then I think I would hardly count as an apostate.


That all depends upon what's in your mind and heart, not your outward behavior alone. Good heavens, Harmony's got them all fooled. You've been a hearty and uncompromising critic of the Church of Jesus Christ since I first encountered you at the FAIR board, and nothing leads me to think that you have not continued on that path in the intervening time. Yes, there are wolves among the flock, and some of them are actually feeding the flock.

Those who persist in this manner will, I am confident, be exposed in the end as the wheat and tares mature.

I know nobody else on this board--and in fact I "defriended" Kevin several months ago for being a putz and accusing me of being a blind apologist.


I can't think of any reason to consider you an apologist at all, which means that Graham is even loonier than I suspected.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_the narrator
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Re: Just read the 100-page hit piece on Dehlin . . .

Post by _the narrator »

Droopy wrote:Blah blah blah blah.


I remember now why I refused to respond to you before. And will resume that now.

Also, I've never been on the FAIR board.
You're absolutely vile and obnoxious paternalistic air of intellectual superiority towards anyone who takes issue with your clear misapprehension of core LDS doctrine must give one pause. - Droopy
_Droopy
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Re: Just read the 100-page hit piece on Dehlin . . .

Post by _Droopy »

the narrator wrote:
Droopy wrote:Blah blah blah blah.


I remember now why I refused to respond to you before. And will resume that now.

Also, I've never been on the FAIR board.



Good, because in no case where I ever observed your responses to any of you critics on the MADboard did you ever respond in an intellectually or philosophically mature or sophisticated manner.

I always had the impression of an ego-wounded teenager wanting to make sure everyone understood that he was really 18.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Just read the 100-page hit piece on Dehlin . . .

Post by _Droopy »

Also, I've never been on the FAIR board.


Its adolescent head gaming such as this that created so many opponents for you on the FAIR message board.

Your home is here, Loyd. You belong.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Cicero
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Re: Just read the 100-page hit piece on Dehlin . . .

Post by _Cicero »

I am not going to stoop to the melodramatic language of DCP and Hamblin, let alone our dear brother Droopy (my soul is not consumed with seething hatred for anyone like his apparently is for anyone who is not a right-wing apologist), BUT I must say as an outside observer with no real dog in the fight that it is a fact that DCP and Hamblin have each put themselves out there publicly and very stridently called Jack's and Narrator's sources liars. These sources REALLY should step up and defend themselves PUBLICLY.

Maybe they really don't care if the Droopys of the world are calling Bradford an apostate on Mormon chat boards, but shouldn't they at least want to defend Bradford and the institute from Dan and Bill? The old guard FARMS apologists are very much controlling the narrative at this point because Bradford and/or these anonymous sources won't contradict what Dan and Bill are saying, except apparently by selective anonymous leaks. That's simply not going to cut it.

Look, people can cite evidence of Dan's and Bill's credibility issues all day long, and I certainly have profound disagreements with each of them, but for most folks their credibility will beat "anonymous sources within MI" every time.
_the narrator
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Re: Just read the 100-page hit piece on Dehlin . . .

Post by _the narrator »

Cicero wrote:I am not going to stoop to the melodramatic language of DCP and Hamblin, let alone our dear brother Droopy (my soul is not consumed with seething hatred for anyone like his apparently is for anyone who is not a right-wing apologist), BUT I must say as an outside observer with no real dog in the fight that it is a fact that DCP and Hamblin have each put themselves out there publicly and very stridently called Jack's and Narrator's sources liars. These sources REALLY should step up and defend themselves PUBLICLY.

Maybe they really don't care if the Droopys of the world are calling Bradford an apostate on Mormon chat boards, but shouldn't they at least want to defend Bradford and the institute from Dan and Bill? The old guard FARMS apologists are very much controlling the narrative at this point because Bradford and/or these anonymous sources won't contradict what Dan and Bill are saying, except apparently by selective anonymous leaks. That's simply not going to cut it.

Look, people can cite evidence of Dan's and Bill's credibility issues all day long, and I certainly have profound disagreements with each of them, but for most folks their credibility will beat "anonymous sources within MI" every time.


In the end everything will be made known. For now Bradford et al are simply taking the high ground while DCP continues to shoot himself in the foot.
You're absolutely vile and obnoxious paternalistic air of intellectual superiority towards anyone who takes issue with your clear misapprehension of core LDS doctrine must give one pause. - Droopy
_Darth J
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Re: Just read the 100-page hit piece on Dehlin . . .

Post by _Darth J »

Droopy, Supreme Court Analyst Par Excellence wrote:... you are lying about actual, historical events or conditions for the purpose of pubic defamation...


Public defamation is the worst kind. Homicidal killing and dishonest fraud are also bad things.

How about private defamation, Droopy? Do you think you would have much luck pursuing a case based on that?
_consiglieri
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Re: Just read the 100-page hit piece on Dehlin . . .

Post by _consiglieri »

Kishkumen wrote:I had a brief post on this review in the wake of the initial breaking of the news on the Dehlin hit piece. If you are at all interested in my reading of Smith on Compton, have a look.


I want to give you credit for reawakening my interest in this piece by Greg Smith, Kish. I had gotten this issue a year ago and plugged my way through until foundering in the middle of his article about BKP and tossing the Review to the side.

I picked it up again last week only because of your discussion of the piece. It was still difficult going, but I made it through this time.

It was while perusing it last week that it struck me I was surely reading a variation of what Greg Smith had lined up for John Dehlin.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
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