A Scenario for our Male Apologists to Consider...

[_KevinSim]

Perhaps it is a good indications that polygamy isn't a commandment from God, but one that came from Joe.

Madeleine, there being fifty percent more active Latter-day Saint women than there are active Latter-day Saint men is a good indication that polygamy isn't "a commandment from God"? How do you come to that conclusion?

[_just me]

Who says women or men have to get married? Who?

[_KevinSim]

Perhaps it is an indication that one's faith is has been placed in a false prophet. Making up rules and saying "they come from God", doesn't make it so.

Madeleine, you're absolutely right. How does one tell then which rules come from God and which don't?

[Guest]

I don't know about that. No LDS teaching refers to the the broader Christian morality as a standard by which it measures the truth of God's commandments. Just look at the things the LDS teach that are considered immoral by other Christians:

1. Baptism for the dead and other temple rites
2. A different definition of God and Jesus Christ
3. Teachings that imply Satan and Christ are brothers

These aren't moral issues. They are issues of faith.

Nay, nay, beautiful Madeleine (I have faith you are beautiful), to believe these things is a matter of faith, but to lead people to an incorrect belief is a matter of morality. Stating God is a corporal being, flesh and bone - that is contrary to the nature of a Christian god because it places limits on God. This is clearly a violation of the perceived 'right' way to view God.

But, this is not very interesting, what is more interesting follows.

Christian morality on marriage is clear, and defined by the teachings of Jesus Christ.

- Marriage is between a man and a woman, as God created us in the beginning (Adam and Eve).
- Any other sexual relationship outside of the two people, even if you call it "marriage", is adultery.
- There is no marriage in heaven.
....
To Liz's point...Satan's temptation in the garden was for Adam and Eve to become gods. Mormonism has enshrined this temptation as God's will. This is a MAJOR foundational difference between Mormonism and Christianity. Mormon polygamy is just an extension of this temptation.

There are many things that Mormonism teaches that can be considered major foundational changes. I've pointed out a few earlier. It seems to me that it is not the morality of the Christian world that is at odds with LDS teachings; it is the morality of the individual.

This is not wrong. But let's call it what it is. You don't get to reject some foundational changes and not others by conveniently benchmarking against Christianity. You either throw all of it away or none of it away.

Integrity is always at odds with faith. One has to have faith that God speaks to prophets. Integrity is what speaks up inside of us, telling us that a prophet is full of crap. Once that happens, I think you have to give up your Mormon card; no one needs revelation to have integrity guide them.

H.

[_KevinSim]

Who says women or men have to get married? Who?

They don't. Women and men don't have to get married. And the women and men who don't get married will end up in the lower two degrees of the Celestial Kingdom or the Terrestrial or the Telestial Kingdom (or, I guess, among the Sons of Perdition).

[_just me]

Who says women or men have to get married? Who?

They don't. Women and men don't have to get married. And the women and men who don't get married will end up in the lower two degrees of the Celestial Kingdom or the Terrestrial or the Telestial Kingdom (or, I guess, among the Sons of Perdition).

According to whom?

[_madeleine]

Nay, nay, beautiful Madeleine (I have faith you are beautiful), to believe these things is a matter of faith, but to lead people to an incorrect belief is a matter of morality.

Mormons believing or teaching what they believe and teach is, of itself, not immoral.

IF an individual teaching incorrect beliefs knew they were incorrect beliefs, that would be an immoral act of the individual.

It is one of the reasons (among many) I view Joseph Smith as amoral. I have no doubt he knew he was lying.

People who believe incorrectly, through no fault of their own, are not immoral.

Stating God is a corporal being, flesh and bone - that is contrary to the nature of a Christian god because it places limits on God. This is clearly a violation of the perceived 'right' way to view God.

No doubt it is heterodox.

There are many things that Mormonism teaches that can be considered major foundational changes. I've pointed out a few earlier. It seems to me that it is not the morality of the Christian world that is at odds with LDS teachings; it is the morality of the individual.

There are moral teachings, the most relevant for this thread being "thou shalt not commit adultery".

[Tator]

Liz3564, can you think of a way God could guarantee a more balanced ratio without trampling on individual free agency?

Maybe you're right; maybe God with his foreknowledge has some way of knowing beforehand that in the end there will be exactly as many men in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom as there will be women. But I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that miracle to happen.

If you're just talking about the next life, you're way off base. You are ignoring the fact that infant males have always died at a higher ratio than infant females. Over thousands of years, that adds up to a significant surplus of males in the CK. Chances are that men are the one who are going to have to accept brother-husbands, anyway.

[_Drifting]

Who says women or men have to get married? Who?

They don't. Women and men don't have to get married. And the women and men who don't get married will end up in the lower two degrees of the Celestial Kingdom or the Terrestrial or the Telestial Kingdom (or, I guess, among the Sons of Perdition).

Someone needs to tell the President....

WE, THE FIRST PRESIDENCY and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.

ALL HUMAN BEINGS—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

IN THE PREMORTAL REALM, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.

THE FIRST COMMANDMENT that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

[_LDSToronto]

There are many things that Mormonism teaches that can be considered major foundational changes. I've pointed out a few earlier. It seems to me that it is not the morality of the Christian world that is at odds with LDS teachings; it is the morality of the individual.

There are moral teachings, the most relevant for this thread being "thou shalt not commit adultery".[/quote]

But polygamy is not adultery because God has commanded it. The Old Testament sees men taking concubines with God's permission.

God is the final moral authority. If he says something is correct, it is correct. Nephi murdered a man for a book, on God's order! Is murder immoral? A case can be made that murder is immoral according to Christian moral authority. But God commanded Laban's slaughter nonetheless. Does this make God immoral? Or do we reject murder and polygamy because *we* find it distasteful?

As I said, Mormons reject polygamy because it violates a personal ethic. Not because it is a false teaching according to an external religious benchmark.

H.