How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com

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_Cicero
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Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com

Post by _Cicero »

LDSToronto wrote:
just me wrote:I am at a loss for words! I cannot believe Monson said that. Maybe it was the dementia speaking...


Nope, they all said it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf-_vxsog4A


WOW

I also thought the 1-2-3 line was just a cheap anti-mormon jibe. The picture is blurry so I can't recognize all of them other than Monson and Uchtdorf.

I paid tithing for many years even after I started having doubts because I believed that the money was being put to good use . . . I'm really having a hard time believing what I just saw.
_mikuu
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Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com

Post by _mikuu »

Nortinski wrote:OMG. Best quote from this article,

“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”

Holy s***. Tell that to Mother Teresa or, I dunno, Jesus H. Christ!

That is the dumbest thing I think I have ever heard a moron say. Mormon. I meant Mormon.


What he is saying is, how can someone serve in a calling (blossom spiritually) when they are worried about where there next meal is coming from (impoverished temporally). I think he is right most people can't serve fully in a calling when they are under that kind of stress. But I think his definition of spirituality is bad. I remember thinking that exact way not long ago.
_Rollo Tomasi
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Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

The Mormon Report wrote:For your consideration:

How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com

I finally read the article, and I'm speechless. The information in the article bothered me on so many levels. in my opinion, it's this kind of story that destroys testimony faster and greater than any tidbit from 150 years ago in Mormon history -- this article is talking about the Church institution today, and it seems to have very little (if anything) to do with Jesus Christ and what He taught and how He lived. This article makes me feel embarrassed to be a member. Perhaps I'm a naïve fool, but a prophet of God should never even step foot in a temple of avarice like City Creek Mall, let alone lead a cheer of "let's go shopping!" I honestly feel depressed.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_Drifting
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Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com

Post by _Drifting »

mikuu wrote:
Nortinski wrote:OMG. Best quote from this article,

“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”

Holy s***. Tell that to Mother Teresa or, I dunno, Jesus H. Christ!

That is the dumbest thing I think I have ever heard a moron say. Mormon. I meant Mormon.


What he is saying is, how can someone serve in a calling (blossom spiritually) when they are worried about where there next meal is coming from (impoverished temporally). I think he is right most people can't serve fully in a calling when they are under that kind of stress. But I think his definition of spirituality is bad. I remember thinking that exact way not long ago.


What you appear to be saying is Mormon Jesus decides who should hold leadership positions based on how much money they have.

How do you equate 'blossom spiritually' with 'serving in a calling' and why do you suggest that's what McMullin meant?
Are you saying poor people without a calling cannot blossom spiritually?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_mikuu
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Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com

Post by _mikuu »

Drifting wrote:What you appear to be saying is Mormon Jesus decides who should hold leadership positions based on how much money they have.

How do you equate 'blossom spiritually' with 'serving in a calling' and why do you suggest that's what McMullin meant?
Are you saying poor people without a calling cannot blossom spiritually?



If I go back to my believing days the people who seemed to be blossoming spiritually were those who were serving in busy callings. The people who weren't blossoming spiritually were those without callings or with callings but not doing anything. Once again if I look back running the program well was related to your testimony/spirituality.

To answer your last question in my believing days I did think that taking care of ones temporal needs was important to ones spirituality. But just the basics, food, shelter, job. Not saying I thought rich people were any more spiritual than others.

But, I probably did think the rich folk were more obedient. :)

I am glad I don't have to worry about that stuff anymore.
_zeezrom
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Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com

Post by _zeezrom »

“One, two, three—let’s go shopping!”


I love it! It is so jovial and carefree sounding. It makes me want to forget about my financial and parental responsibilities. I really do have a list of things I would so love to buy but have restrained myself for years and years.

These guys were just having fun. Maybe they were a little drunk on *Mormon wine. It's okay, let them have their fun.

*The juice from a teat of the giant priesthood cow.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_Chap
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Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com

Post by _Chap »

zeezrom wrote: ...
These guys were just having fun. Maybe they were a little drunk on *Mormon wine. It's okay, let them have their fun.

*The juice from the teat of the giant priesthood cow.


Hmm. I remember another earlier occasion when people thought that the apostles were drunk.

One notable difference appears in verse 45, where it seems that the apostles were not into shopping at all - rather the reverse.

Odd lot, the early church.

Were they already apostate, do you think?

Acts 2



1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Equality
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Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com

Post by _Equality »

mikuu wrote:
Nortinski wrote:OMG. Best quote from this article,

“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”

Holy s***. Tell that to Mother Teresa or, I dunno, Jesus H. Christ!

That is the dumbest thing I think I have ever heard a moron say. Mormon. I meant Mormon.


What he is saying is, how can someone serve in a calling (blossom spiritually) when they are worried about where there next meal is coming from (impoverished temporally). I think he is right most people can't serve fully in a calling when they are under that kind of stress. But I think his definition of spirituality is bad. I remember thinking that exact way not long ago.

I am very critical of the whole mall thing, and have no problem pouncing on a stupid statement from a church leader for craps and giggles, but in this case, I think what he's really trying to say is that when people are suffering temporally and struggling to provide the most basic necessities of life, it is much harder for them to blossom spiritually. When they are wondering where their next meal is coming from or if the landlord is going to kick them out this month, it's hard for them to think about anything "spiritual." If that's what he is saying, I can sort of agree. Of course, having said that, I do think a better program for the church to employ would be to help people who are deeply impoverished and struggling financially to get them back on their feet: education, job training, direct cash assistance for food and mortgage and utilities, etc. Not building a shopping mall. The quote from McMullin is not terrible per se, but in the context of the article, it makes him look like an ass, to be sure. There just is no connection between this extravagant mall and condos and helping people who are temporally impoverished.
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain
"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
_RayAgostini

Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com

Post by _RayAgostini »

Equality wrote: Of course, having said that, I do think a better program for the church to employ would be to help people who are deeply impoverished and struggling financially to get them back on their feet: education, job training, direct cash assistance for food and mortgage and utilities, etc. Not building a shopping mall. The quote from McMullin is not terrible per se, but in the context of the article, it makes him look like an ass, to be sure. There just is no connection between this extravagant mall and condos and helping people who are temporally impoverished.


The Church Welfare Program was in place when I was a bishop (1980-1983), and it's still going, and perhaps even stronger. It's one of the most detailed welfare programs in existence (I believe US government officials looked into it and possibly adopting it, but I'd have to find the quote).

LDS Family Services is also another part of the Welfare Program. Although LDS Family Services is a separate corporation, bishops (who oversee local welfare needs and distribution) refer members of the Church who are in need of its help. LDS Family Services provide adoption services, counseling for unwed parents, placing children in foster homes, and therapy and counseling for families or individuals experiencing other problems.

Another part of the welfare program is the Bishop’s Storehouse. The Bishop’s Storehouse is a place where goods are kept to be distributed to those in need. It is filled with food and other household items such as soap, food, and clothing, some of which are produced by the Church. When a family or individual is going through a hard time, they can go to their bishop and he will help them decide what they need.

The Church also provides employment programs. The Church has set up centers around the world where people can go and get help finding a job or learning marketable skills. The Church also runs a program known as the Perpetual Education Fund. Through this program, people can apply for aid from the Church to pay for their schooling. After they have completed their education they are asked to return the money they used so that others will be helped. Anyone can donate to this fund as well.
(Emphasis added)

Church Welfare Program.

Every ward had an "employment specialist" (I'm talking about when I was a bishop; I can't speak for now), who was specifically assigned to help unemployed, or under-employed members find work, and where possible helping members develop skills to obtain better employment. Of course it was necessary to call someone to this position who had the requisite knowledge and skills, and that wasn't always possible in a small ward as mine, but in theory, in larger wards with a greater pool of resources to choose from, it should work in practice very well.

Every bishop was expected to fully read and understand the Welfare Services Handbook, and they were provided with regular stake training. Many people misunderstand the role of a bishop, whose two major responsibilities are 1) The Aaronic Priesthood (he's the President of the AP), and 2) The temporal welfare of ward members. As a bishop, he is also the "presiding high priest" over the ward, but those responsibilities are mainly delegated through the Melchizedek priesthood quorums, such as home teaching, etc.
_Yoda

Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com

Post by _Yoda »

Ray wrote:Every ward had an "employment specialist" (I'm talking about when I was a bishop; I can't speak for now), who was specifically assigned to help unemployed, or under-employed members find work, and where possible helping members develop skills to obtain better employment. Of course it was necessary to call someone to this position who had the requisite knowledge and skills, and that wasn't always possible in a small ward as mine, but in theory, in larger wards with a greater pool of resources to choose from, it should work in practice very well.


The calling of Employment Specialist still exists. My husband was the Employment Specialist for our ward when we lived in Utah. I have served as the Employment Specialist in our NC ward.
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