Quick argument against Free Agency

[_Drifting]

What Is Agency?
Agency is the ability and privilege God gives us to choose and to act for ourselves. Agency is essential in the plan of salvation. Without agency, we would not be able to learn or progress or follow the Savior. With it, we are “free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil” (2 Nephi 2:27).

At what age do we get given 'Agency' by God and how do we identify when we have got it?

Seriously, believing Mormons.
Can you not answer this?

[_huckelberry]

"Elapsed proper-time is a private issue.
It depends on the spacetime-path taken.
Different spacetime-paths have different spacetime-lengths."

Tobin, did you notice the word elapsed, that is past tense, in this quote from the web site you referenced?

The sequnce (or order) is not absolute and the way an observer may slice up space time might be different from observer to observer.

"In Einstein-Minkowski spacetime, each observer will slice up spacetime in his own way. There is no universal way to slice it up. "

What this means is observers can see sequences in any order.

Your statement that a space traveller could not view what we perceive as the future is absolutely false under this model. One simple way a space traveller can do so is if he is moving at close to the speed of light for example. He would see the future unfold before his eyes.

Tobin I am having difficulty responding to your statements because some of them are very vague. You mention seeing the future unfold before his eyes. We all see the future unfold before our eyes. Are you referring to something unusual? Probably but you have not been specific as to what and how.

Before that you mention sequences in any order. What can you mean by that??. It sounds like the history of the civil war as heard by a sleepy high school student. He remembers jumbled fragments between snoozes. Cold harbor leads to Bull Run and Appomattox lead from Gettysburg to Valley Forge. His special slice of time sequence. What ever you mean you cannot mean things fly loose from cause and effect and happen willy nilly. I am sure you are aware that there is a speed limit for travel in relativity which prevents events jumbling up. Time for the traveler slows increasingly as speed approach that of light but the speed cannot exceed that into a realm of reversed time.

There are several things we both have repeated and agree on. The observer a light year away in his telescope observing last years events on earth, that is a kind of time travel. The classic twin paradox. the speedy travelers time slows so the rest of us are ahead in time. That one is clear and we as well as experiment agree on this.

My point was that there is not a situation flowing from these principals which would establish a person seeing what I will decide to have for breakfast tomorrow. I am not yet to that time to decide it.

[_madeleine]

At what age do we get given 'Agency' by God and how do we identify when we have got it?

Seriously, believing Mormons.
Can you not answer this?

I've asked this several times, of several different Mormons. It seems to be Mormon free agency is a light that is on a dimmer switch, and sometime around 3-7 years old it gets slowly turned up, brighter and brighter, until tada! At 8 years old it's on all the way. Still, may not be up on bright all the time, so 8 years and 1 day or 8 years and 364 days, it's up in the air. At 9 years old, exactly, the dimmer switch is removed and there is only bright, unclouded, free agency!

This isn't a criticism.

[_Drifting]

At what age do we get given 'Agency' by God and how do we identify when we have got it?

Seriously, believing Mormons.
Can you not answer this?

I've asked this several times, of several different Mormons. It seems to be Mormon free agency is a light that is on a dimmer switch, and sometime around 3-7 years old it gets slowly turned up, brighter and brighter, until tada! At 8 years old it's on all the way. Still, may not be up on bright all the time, so 8 years and 1 day or 8 years and 364 days, it's up in the air. At 9 years old, exactly, the dimmer switch is removed and there is only bright, unclouded, free agency!

This isn't a criticism.

When do non Mormon's get it?

I don't remember at eight years old realising I had a choice about baptism. Quite the opposite. I don't remember my parents sitting me down and explaining everything that goes along with being baptised into Mormonism to the point where I was able to make an informed and clear decision.

[_madeleine]

I've asked this several times, of several different Mormons. It seems to be Mormon free agency is a light that is on a dimmer switch, and sometime around 3-7 years old it gets slowly turned up, brighter and brighter, until tada! At 8 years old it's on all the way. Still, may not be up on bright all the time, so 8 years and 1 day or 8 years and 364 days, it's up in the air. At 9 years old, exactly, the dimmer switch is removed and there is only bright, unclouded, free agency!

This isn't a criticism.

When do non Mormon's get it?

Born with it.

I don't remember at eight years old realising I had a choice about baptism. Quite the opposite. I don't remember my parents sitting me down and explaining everything that goes along with being baptised into Mormonism to the point where I was able to make an informed and clear decision.

Ditto.

[_Tobin]

My point was that there is not a situation flowing from these principals which would establish a person seeing what I will decide to have for breakfast tomorrow. I am not yet to that time to decide it.

And you are being absolutely incorrect, as I've explained many times.

Brian Greene explains it this way, suppose an alien were 10 billion light years away but not moving (and in similar gravity to us), the alien's current time would be in sync with Earth. However, if the alien then started moving away from us, even at a slow speed , his space time would be angled, resulting in his future moving towards Earth's distant past. Then consider, if he were to move towards Earth instead of away from it, his space time would be angled towards the future so that his future would be in sync with Earth's distant future.

What does this mean? If the alien had very sophisticated means to observe our space time, he could see everything that occured or will occur in our space-time simply by changing his direction. Essentially, as Einstein and Kurt Godel discussed, the future is already written because it is theoretically observable (and you can travel through time in either direction if you are very far away for example).

So, it doesn't matter what you decide you will have tomorrow. It will happen the way it must happen and you can't choose an alternative.

[_Drifting]

So, it doesn't matter what you decide you will have tomorrow. It will happen the way it must happen and you can't choose an alternative.

So you don't believe we choose anything?
You believe everything is pre-destined to happen?
Really?
(did God know I was going to type that?)

[_huckelberry]

My point was that there is not a situation flowing from these principals which would establish a person seeing what I will decide to have for breakfast tomorrow. I am not yet to that time to decide it.

And you are being absolutely incorrect, as I've explained many times.

Brian Greene explains it this way, suppose an alien were 10 billion light years away but not moving (and in similar gravity to us), the alien's current time would be in sync with Earth. However, if the alien then started moving away from us, even at a slow speed , his space time would be angled, resulting in his future moving towards Earth's distant past. Then consider, if he were to move towards Earth instead of away from it, his space time would be angled towards the future so that his future would be in sync with Earth's distant future.

What does this mean? If the alien had very sophisticated means to observe our space time, he could see everything that occured or will occur in our space-time simply by changing his direction. Essentially, as Einstein and Kurt Godel discussed, the future is already written because it is theoretically observable (and you can travel through time in either direction if you are very far away for example).

So, it doesn't matter what you decide you will have tomorrow. It will happen the way it must happen and you can't choose an alternative.

Tobin, taking my cue from your non engaging phrase "you are being absolutely incorrect." I confess we are stuck, at least between the two of us, with a stalemate.

[_Tobin]

And you are being absolutely incorrect, as I've explained many times.

Brian Greene explains it this way, suppose an alien were 10 billion light years away but not moving (and in similar gravity to us), the alien's current time would be in sync with Earth. However, if the alien then started moving away from us, even at a slow speed , his space time would be angled, resulting in his future moving towards Earth's distant past. Then consider, if he were to move towards Earth instead of away from it, his space time would be angled towards the future so that his future would be in sync with Earth's distant future.

What does this mean? If the alien had very sophisticated means to observe our space time, he could see everything that occured or will occur in our space-time simply by changing his direction. Essentially, as Einstein and Kurt Godel discussed, the future is already written because it is theoretically observable (and you can travel through time in either direction if you are very far away for example).

So, it doesn't matter what you decide you will have tomorrow. It will happen the way it must happen and you can't choose an alternative.

Tobin, taking my cue from your non engaging phrase "you are being absolutely incorrect." I confess we are stuck, at least between the two of us, with a stalemate.

I have explained the concept as best I can and even cited Greene's example (from his book and TV series). If you disagree with the theory, take it up with Einstein and Godel. I've spelled out the implications of it. You can choose not to believe in relativity though I think there is a good case to be made that it is legitimate. It also reflects my own view of God. That God is naturally arising and if God knows the future, it must be a result of natural laws that allows him to do so. Here is exactly how God may be able to peer into our future.

[_Drifting]

Tobin, taking my cue from your non engaging phrase "you are being absolutely incorrect." I confess we are stuck, at least between the two of us, with a stalemate.

You should've seen that coming...