Paying tithing online....SLC having a change of heart

[_RayAgostini]

Then why dies the Bishop ask the question(s)?

The answer to that is in D&C 72:1-6:

1 Hearken, and listen to the voice of the Lord, O ye who have assembled yourselves together, who are the high priests of my church, to whom the kingdom and power have been given.
2 For verily thus saith the Lord, it is expedient in me for a bishop to be appointed unto you, or of you, unto the church in this part of the Lord’s vineyard.
3 And verily in this thing ye have done wisely, for it is required of the Lord, at the hand of every steward, to render an account of his stewardship, both in time and in eternity.
4 For he who is faithful and wise in time is accounted worthy to inherit the mansions prepared for him of my Father.
5 Verily I say unto you, the elders of the church in this part of my vineyard shall render an account of their stewardship unto the bishop, who shall be appointed of me in this part of my vineyard.
6 These things shall be had on record, to be handed over unto the bishop in Zion.

[_Drifting]

Then why dies the Bishop ask the question(s)?

The answer to that is in D&C 72:1-6:

1 Hearken, and listen to the voice of the Lord, O ye who have assembled yourselves together, who are the high priests of my church, to whom the kingdom and power have been given.
2 For verily thus saith the Lord, it is expedient in me for a bishop to be appointed unto you, or of you, unto the church in this part of the Lord’s vineyard.
3 And verily in this thing ye have done wisely, for it is required of the Lord, at the hand of every steward, to render an account of his stewardship, both in time and in eternity.
4 For he who is faithful and wise in time is accounted worthy to inherit the mansions prepared for him of my Father.
5 Verily I say unto you, the elders of the church in this part of my vineyard shall render an account of their stewardship unto the bishop, who shall be appointed of me in this part of my vineyard.
6 These things shall be had on record, to be handed over unto the bishop in Zion.

Sorry Ray, I wasn't clear.
God knows the status of our worthiness and so do we.
There is no need for a third party to ask question, the answers to which the interested parties already have.

[_RayAgostini]

Sorry Ray, I wasn't clear.
God knows the status of our worthiness and so do we.
There is no need for a third party to ask question, the answers to which the interested parties already have.

The tithing question and status are specific "to the Church", or to members of the Church, not outsiders, non-Mormons, or even the excommunicated.

1 Hearken, and listen to the voice of the Lord, O ye who have assembled yourselves together, who are the high priests of my church, to whom the kingdom and power have been given.

[_Pahoran]

No-one's "personal finances are exposed to the bishop." There is no "financial disclosure." You are fantasising again.

Regards,
Pahoran

Yep, there is. One for each member showing payments made for the last 12 months.

If your Bishop doesn't have a print out for you perhaps it's time you started paying tithing....

The printout in question doesn't "expose" anything at all about my "personal finances" except how much I have donated to the Church. Exactly how big a secret is that supposed to be from the Church leader who has a specific responsibility for receiving the tithes?

And I don't have to "disclose" anything else at all except whether or not I regard the tithing amount as representing a full tithe.

Incidentally, I have paid tithing exclusively online for the last two years, and everything I've paid shows up on the printout. So much for the "theory" (a dignified name for a spiteful and baseless accusation) that has been advanced in this thread.

Regards,
Pahoran

[_moksha]

If the Church were to require members to use the Deseret Tax Preparation Service, Bishops would be able to see on their monitors the suggested gross tithing, net tithing, received tithing to date and the percentage that represents of the gross and net amount.

If the gross tithing amount is current, the Bishop would then issue a big smile. If only the net tithing amount is current, the Bishop would raise his right eyebrow to the square. If both amounts were insufficient for a Temple recommend and eternal exaltation, a credit card scanner would be offered to bring delinquent accounts up to date. If no credit card was proffered or insufficient funds available for the transaction, then the Temple recommend would be declined and eternal exaltation put on suspension.

[_Drifting]

The printout in question doesn't "expose" anything at all about my "personal finances" except how much I have donated to the Church. Exactly how big a secret is that supposed to be from the Church leader who has a specific responsibility for receiving the tithes?

And I don't have to "disclose" anything else at all except whether or not I regard the tithing amount as representing a full tithe.

Incidentally, I have paid tithing exclusively online for the last two years, and everything I've paid shows up on the printout. So much for the "theory" (a dignified name for a spiteful and baseless accusation) that has been advanced in this thread.

Regards,
Pahoran

Okay, so now you're saying there IS disclosure about personal finances but that it is limited to payments made to the Church. The print out (which you now acknowledge does exist) shows how much you have paid under each category (Tithing, Fast Offering etc) and the Bishop can then deduce from your answer "yes I pay a full tithe" how much you earn. Hence, your personal finances are disclosed. Unless you lie to your Bishop, you don't lie to your Bishop do you?

[_Pahoran]

The printout in question doesn't "expose" anything at all about my "personal finances" except how much I have donated to the Church. Exactly how big a secret is that supposed to be from the Church leader who has a specific responsibility for receiving the tithes?

And I don't have to "disclose" anything else at all except whether or not I regard the tithing amount as representing a full tithe.

Incidentally, I have paid tithing exclusively online for the last two years, and everything I've paid shows up on the printout. So much for the "theory" (a dignified name for a spiteful and baseless accusation) that has been advanced in this thread.

Regards,
Pahoran

Okay, so now you're saying

If you want the discussion to remain irenic, it might help if you avoided making sly insinuations to the effect that I'm "now" saying anything different than what I said before.

There is no "financial disclosure." The Bishop shows the printout to me; I don't show it to him. He already has it.

there IS disclosure about personal finances but that it is limited to payments made to the Church.

That's not a "disclosure." The Church already knows how much money it has received from me. The Church furnishes the printouts to the bishop as its servant or agent. He doesn't need to meet with me to look at them.

The print out (which you now acknowledge does exist)

Again with that sly, counterfactual and provocative little "now." I never said it didn't.

shows how much you have paid under each category (Tithing, Fast Offering etc) and the Bishop can then deduce from your answer "yes I pay a full tithe" how much you earn. Hence, your personal finances are disclosed. Unless you lie to your Bishop, you don't lie to your Bishop do you?

I don't lie to my bishop (or anyone else, for that matter.) But given that it's up to each individual to decide how they calculate their tenth, the bishop can only guess.

And keep in mind that he has over a hundred such interviews over a few days. He writes nothing down from any of them except to certify that someone has declared him/herself a full tithepayer. My bishop is a great guy, but he doesn't have a photographic memory.

The only thing that I "disclose" is whether or not I regard the tithing amount shown as a full tithe. The bishop has no better idea of my financial position after Tithing Settlement than he did before. And now another family is walking into his office, and there's a dozen more after them. And that's just that one afternoon.

Regards,
Pahoran

[_Chap]

...

The only thing that I "disclose" is whether or not I regard the tithing amount shown as a full tithe. The bishop has no better idea of my financial position after Tithing Settlement than he did before. And now another family is walking into his office, and there's a dozen more after them. And that's just that one afternoon.

Regards,
Pahoran

Doesn't he have the spiritual discernment to distinguish whether or not the member in front of him is or is not telling the truth about such an important matter as tithing?

by the way, if the tithing settlement meeting is as completely routine and devoid of real decisions as Pahoran describes (and no doubt that is his experience), why does it have to take place at all? Why bother with a face to face meeting instead of (for instance) the member simply signing a form or clicking 'Confirm' on a link on an internet payment page?

[_SteelHead]

Right.... So let's say for example you paid $10k which shows up on your eoy report. Doesn't take a genius to extrapolate back to around 100k net and possibly even more gross.

Let's also say you live in a 800k house, and it easy to find comparables on tuilia. Again doesn't take a genius to extrapolate that to "more than likely underpaid your tithing" if the bishop thinks tithing is on some definition of net or gross vs surplus or increase.

And it takes even less effort to compare against what you paid in previous years.

[_Pahoran]

Doesn't he have the spiritual discernment to distinguish whether or not the member in front of him is or is not telling the truth about such an important matter as tithing?

That's irrelevant to the question. The point of Tithing Settlement is to enable the member to declare his/her tithing status.

by the way, if the tithing settlement meeting is as completely routine and devoid of real decisions as Pahoran describes (and no doubt that is his experience), why does it have to take place at all? Why bother with a face to face meeting instead of (for instance) the member simply signing a form or clicking 'Confirm' on a link on an internet payment page?

The question answers itself when you think about the fact that Tithing Settlement has always been done in a meeting with the Bishop, and not with the financial clerk. It's about accountability, and it goes both ways, and only someone with authority to represent the Church can conduct it.

Regards,
Pahoran