Chap wrote: Nope. The skin color angle is a 19th century overlay on an attempted imitation of ancient Hebrew scripture. It's not surprising that the joins show, is it?
My point was simply that the Bible, and other stories do follow the same theme of God's chosen group being wicked and needing some other group to force them to repent.
Sorry for the misunderstanding - I was attempting to express agreement with you, when you asked rhetorically:
Is it that hard to think Joseph or others may have just used a common story type with the Book of Mormon.
My 'nope' meant 'No, it isn't hard to think Joseph or others may have just used a common story type with the Book of Mormon'.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
why me wrote: If I am not mistaken the white and delightsome was changed to pure and delightsome by Joseph Smith in 1840.
That isn't the only problem with her assertion why me. If it was purely a 19th century view of racism, then why in the Book of Mormon are the Lamanites portrayed as rigtheous at times and the Nephites as wicked?!? The whole premise is flawed and just plain silly to start with.
Because the ultimate outcome of the Book of Mormon is that the Lamanites returned to being a dark-skinned, degenerate people who wiped out the white race, and this allegedly explains the origins of the American Indians. The take-away from the Book of Mormon is that the American Indians are a fallen race that needs to be rescued by the great white fathers of Joseph Smith's church.
D&C 3
18 And this testimony shall come to the knowledge of the Lamanites, and the Lemuelites, and the Ishmaelites, who dwindled in unbelief because of the iniquity of their fathers, whom the Lord has suffered to destroy their brethren the Nephites, because of their iniquities and their abominations. 19 And for this very purpose are these plates preserved, which contain these records—that the promises of the Lord might be fulfilled, which he made to his people; 20 And that the Lamanites might come to the knowledge of their fathers, and that they might know the promises of the Lord, and that they may believe the gospel and rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ, and be glorified through faith in his name, and that through their repentance they might be saved. Amen.
“The Lamanite people are increasing in numbers and influence. When the Navajos returned from Fort Sumner after a shameful and devastating captivity, there were only 9,000 of them left; now there are more than 100,000. There are nearly 130 million Lamanites worldwide. Their superstitions are giving way. They are becoming active politically and responsible in their communities wherever they dwell. Their employment and standard of living are increasing.
“The Church has been established among them to a degree, and it will continue to be established on an ever-increasing scale. There are now more than 350,000 Lamanite members of the Church. They attend their meetings faithfully. They have the priesthood among them. There are branch presidents, quorum leaders, bishops, stake presidents, high councilors, mission presidents, and leaders in all phases of the work among them. They are attending the temple and receiving the ordinances necessary for exaltation. They are intelligent and faithful; they are a great people and a blessed people. …
“And can we not exercise our faith to expand this work even further? Enos prayed a prayer of mighty faith and secured a promise from the Lord that the Lamanite would be preserved. How glorious it would be if a million Latter-day Saint families were on their knees daily asking in faith that the work among these their brethren would be hastened, that the doors might be opened.
“The Lamanites must rise again in dignity and strength to fully join their brethren and sisters of the household of God in carrying forth his work in preparation for that day when the Lord Jesus Christ will return to lead his people, when the millennium will be ushered in, when the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory and its lands be united and become one land. For the prophets have said, ‘The remnant of the house of Joseph shall be built upon this land; and it shall be a land of their inheritance; and they shall build up a holy city unto the Lord, like unto the Jerusalem of old; and they shall no more be confounded, until the end come when the earth shall pass away.’ (Eth. 13:8.)
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:336:
"You may inquire of the intelligent of the world whether they can tell why the aborigines of this country are dark, loathsome, ignorant, and sunken into the depths of degradation ...When the Lord has a people, he makes covenants with them and gives unto them promises: then, if they transgress his law, change his ordinances, and break his covenants he has made with them, he will put a mark upon them, as in the case of the Lamanites and other portions of the house of Israel; but by-and-by they will become a white and delightsome people."
We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem, about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites, of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country.
If the Lamanites were such a lazy, idle and loathsome people...how come they won?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
why me wrote: Maybe it is me but I just don't know how the vision of the three witnesses fits into all this. Do you?
Let's see. If three guys swore to you that an angel told them a dinosaur killed Abraham Lincoln, how should that fit into your understanding of American history?
Drifting wrote:If the Lamanites were such a lazy, idle and loathsome people...how come they won?
Because the Nephites weren't righteous anymore, remember?
DOH! *slaps forehead*
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Okay, just trying to follow on and seek evidence that Lehi may have come over to the Americas with 'racist' ideas already in place (based on skin colour).
I found this book (which I haven't read, but have spent some time checking the reviews)
In it Goldenberg argues that there is a preference for one's own skin tone, but beyond that there is no evidence for black Africans being associated with slavery or a 'curse'. The Semitic evidence is just not there from the period in question.
So to me it goes back to a 'loose translation'. It is more likely that the Book of Mormon was filtered through Joseph's brain and so would naturally have included his prejudices and experiences. This would seem to me to most likely explain away all the anachronisms despite various accounts that would suggest the contrary.
I'm quite prepared to believe that there is good in the Book of Mormon, that there are good messages there, but there are certainly bad messages also, and I would put the blame for that on Joseph rather than ancient Israelites in matters concerning race.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
Mary wrote:So to me it goes back to a 'loose translation'. It is more likely that the Book of Mormon was filtered through Joseph's brain and so would naturally have included his prejudices and experiences. This would seem to me to most likely explain away all the anachronisms despite various accounts that would suggest the contrary.
How does this work in regards to the lamanites and being cursed with dark skin?
