Posting 95 LDS Theses on the Church Doors

[_thews]

thews,

I have given you a good factual reference. Your response is to attack the reference and ignore it because it demonstrates you are wrong. That is all that is going on here. You behavior here is simply demonstrating a case of pure intellectual dishonesty. There is nothing more I need to point out.

You are intellectually dishonest Tobin. In order to have a rational discussion, one must acknowledge the points made by the other person. Questions you failed to acknowledge:

1) What do you take from Emma's comment regarding the translation process?
2) What fault do you find with FairMormon's data?
3) Why do you believe Joseph Smith would fail to even mention your supposed point until 12 years after the fact?

If you actually address these questions Tobin, you can be taken as credible. If you continue to spew the same parrot-speak and fail to answer the data presented, it only defines your position as a ruse based on data you choose to believe in while discounting factual data from the opposing side. Either answer the questions, or just stop already. It's tiring to answer your continued intentional diversion.

[_Tobin]

1) What do you take from Emma's comment regarding the translation process?

The U&T are seer stones. They were to be used covered with a veil, so using them as seer stones covering your face with a hat is perfectly consistent with their use.

2) What fault do you find with FairMormon's data?

It doesn't take into account what Joseph Smith said about the return of the U&T after losing the 116 pages.

3) Why do you believe Joseph Smith would fail to even mention your supposed point until 12 years after the fact?

The Gospels weren't written for decades after Jesus Christ's life. Are we to disbelieve them as a result? Again, this just another example of a non-sense issue poised by you.

[_thews]

1) What do you take from Emma's comment regarding the translation process?

The U&T are seer stones. They were to be used covered with a veil, so using them as seer stones covering your face with a hat is perfectly consistent with their use.

Very good Tobin. You acknowledge Joseph Smith's seer stones are the so-called "Urim and Thummim".

2) What fault do you find with FairMormon's data?

It doesn't take into account what Joseph Smith said about the return of the U&T after losing the 116 pages.

See #1. You acknowledge the seer stone(s) were the Urim and Thummim, so, regardless of what you call them, seer stones were what was Joseph Smith used to translate the Book of Mormon. The "Urim and Thummim" were only used to translate the lost 116 pages. Do you agree?

3) Why do you believe Joseph Smith would fail to even mention your supposed point until 12 years after the fact?

The Gospels weren't written for decades after Jesus Christ's life. Are we to disbelieve them as a result? Again, this just another example of a non-sense issue poised by you.

Nonsense according to you. The Book of Commandments was published and mentioned nothing of "Urim and Thummim". Who is making sense here? Why would this important fact be left out of the Book of Commandments?

[_Tobin]

See #1. You acknowledge the seer stone(s) were the Urim and Thummim, so, regardless of what you call them, seer stones were what was Joseph Smith used to translate the Book of Mormon. The "Urim and Thummim" were only used to translate the lost 116 pages. Do you agree?

No, they were returned and used for the rest of the Book of Mormon as well.

Nonsense according to you. The Book of Commandments was published and mentioned nothing of "Urim and Thummim". Who is making sense here? Why would this important fact be left out of the Book of Commandments?

This is just a repeat of your silly argument that we can't believe what Joseph Smith stated later in his life about events because he didn't mention them before. There are any number of reasonable explanations about why he didn't mention them earlier. The most likely being that he didn't know that was what they were called and merely referred to them as seer stones, which they were.

[_thews]

See #1. You acknowledge the seer stone(s) were the Urim and Thummim, so, regardless of what you call them, seer stones were what was Joseph Smith used to translate the Book of Mormon. The "Urim and Thummim" were only used to translate the lost 116 pages. Do you agree?

No, they were returned and used for the rest of the Book of Mormon as well.

First let me correct a typo. What I meant to say was the only translation tool used to translate the lost 116 pages were the Nephite spectacles. When you claim they (the "Urim and Thummim") were used, what exactly are you referring to? The Nephite spectacles, or Joseph Smith's seer stones?

Nonsense according to you. The Book of Commandments was published and mentioned nothing of "Urim and Thummim". Who is making sense here? Why would this important fact be left out of the Book of Commandments?

This is just a repeat of your silly argument that we can't believe what Joseph Smith stated later in his life about events because he didn't mention them before. There are any number of reasonable explanations about why he didn't mention them earlier. The most likely being that he didn't know that was what they were called and merely referred to them as seer stones, which they were.

What I don't understand from the above is what you're calling "seer stones". There are the brown and white seer stones Joseph Smith used when he was a money-digger and the Nephite spectacles.

Regarding what Joseph Smith called them, others close to Joseph Smith were more specific. For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seer_stone ... _Saints%29

In 1823 Smith said that an angel told him of the existence of Golden Plates along with "two stones in silver bows" fastened to a breastplate that the angel said God had prepared for translating the plates.[16][17] In dictating the Book of Mormon, Smith said he used these "interpreters," which he later referred to as "Urim and Thummim."[18] Joseph's wife, Emma, said that Smith used the Urim and Thummim to translate the lost 116 pages of the manuscript but that Smith translated the published Book of Mormon using the single chocolate-colored stone[19] that he had previously used in treasure-quests.[20]

David Whitmer said when Smith translated the Book of Mormon, he "put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man."[21]

Note in Whitmer's account, the use of "seer stone" is singular. There is no mention of silver bows or stones.

The same is true of what Martin Harris said:

Martin Harris was one of the scribes Joseph Smith used to record the writing on the plates. This enabled him to give a first-hand account of how Smith performed this translation. Harris noted,

"By aid of the Seer Stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin, and when finished he would say 'written;' and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another appear in its place; but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used" (CHC 1:29).

Again in the above, "seer stone" is singular.

Emma Smith's actual words say the exact same thing, referring to "the stone" as singular.
http://www.mrm.org/translation

"Smith's wife, Emma Smith Bidamon, was interviewed late in her life by her son Joseph Smith III about her knowledge of the early [p.99] church. This interview took place in February 1879 in the presence of Lewis C. Bidamon, her husband. At one point Emma stated the following: ‘In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us... .'"

If Joseph Smith wore a breastplate and glasses, he wouldn't need to put his face into a hat. You have many data points to consider Tobin, and you're being so vague as to what was supposedly given back to Joseph Smith I don't understand what you're talking about. Please clarify what each of these items are:

1) Nephite spectacles.
2) Joseph Smith's white and brown seer stones.
2) The Urim and Thummim.

[_Tobin]

As I've already pointed out to you and you have already agreed - the U&T ARE SEER STONES - and they weren't fixed in the bows. Joseph Smith would take them out of their bows and use them like any of his other seer stones. Your citation from Emma reinforces what I already said that Joseph Smith didn't know they were called the U&T at the time and that is why we have the later citations of the term. Also, Emma and David Whitmer were not present during most of the translation. What proportion of the time Joseph Smith spent using which seer stone is unknown. I've simply and factually cited Joseph Smith himself where he said he had the U&T (ie SEER STONES) in his possession AFTER losing the 116 pages though. And as you've noted, Joseph Smith did use them for the 116 pages, so it would make little sense that he wouldn't use them when he had them for the rest of the Book of Mormon.

[_thews]

As I've already pointed out to you and you have already agreed - the U&T ARE SEER STONES - and they weren't fixed in the bows.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. Joseph Smith never "lost" his seer stones, so they couldn't be given back to him. You could argue his "gift" was given back, but the seer stones were owned long before the Book of Mormon and the LDS church still has them.

Joseph Smith would take them out of their bows and use them like any of his other seer stones.

What you're attempting to do here is create a theoretically possible scenario that there was a third "Urim and Thummim" set of stones, which is not true and isn't supported by anything. Please give me a CFR on where in Mormon history this theory is supported.

According to the Ensign, you are categorically wrong.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones

In the stone box containing the gold plates, Joseph found what Book of Mormon prophets referred to as “interpreters,” or a “stone, . . . . He described the instrument as “spectacles” and referred to it using an Old Testament term, Urim and Thummim. . . . He also sometimes applied the term to other stones he possessed, called “seer stones” because they aided him in receiving revelations as a seer. The Prophet received some early revelations through the use of these seer stones.
— "Great and Marvelous Are the Revelations of God," Ensign, (January 2013).

Your citation from Emma reinforces what I already said that Joseph Smith didn't know they were called the U&T at the time and that is why we have the later citations of the term.

Well Tobin, again you create an excuse for Joseph Smith to support your theory, which isn't based on the actual truth. The truth, if you care to acknowledge it, is that Joseph Smith knew what the Nephite interpreters we called. The first use of "Urim and Thummim" wasn't used until 1833... three years after the Book of Mormon was published. Did God supposedly clarify what name to use after the fact?

The most important error in your logic is that Joseph Smith used the chocolate-colored stone to translate the Book of Mormon. We know he found this in a well before the Book of Mormon and used it to see evil treasure guardians. Was the supposed "Urim and Thummim" also chocolate-colored?

Also, Emma and David Whitmer were not present during most of the translation.

Says who? You? What did your version of the Urim and Thummim look like? Just because their (Emma, Whitmer and Harris) accounts of the translation doesn't match your concocted theory, it doesn't negate what they claimed, which all said stone... not stones.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones

There is considerable evidence that the location of the plates and Nephite interpreters (Urim and Thummim) were revealed to Joseph via his second, white seer stone. In 1859, Martin Harris recalled that "Joseph had a stone which was dug from the well of Mason Chase...It was by means of this stone he first discovered the plates."

What proportion of the time Joseph Smith spent using which seer stone is unknown.

His favorite was the chocolate-colored one.

I've simply and factually cited Joseph Smith himself where he said he had the U&T (ie SEER STONES) in his possession AFTER losing the 116 pages though.

What you haven't factually stated is the he never lost his brown and white seer stones, or that they were used to translate the Book of Mormon.

And as you've noted, Joseph Smith did use them for the 116 pages, so it would make little sense that he wouldn't use them when he had them for the rest of the Book of Mormon.

He didn't have the Nephite interpreters after the lost pages (according to D&C 10:1). Note in the following "by the means of the Urim and Thummim" was added years after the Book of Mormon was published and wasn't in the Book of Commandments.

https://www.LDS.org/scriptures/dc-testa ... 0?lang=eng

1 Now, behold, I say unto you, that because you adelivered up those writings which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them.

To summarize Tobin, while you attempt to create a third entity to go along with Nephite interpreters/Urim and Thummim/Seer stones, it simply isn't true. The conflated use of Urim and Thummim is the issue and the LDS church clouds this fact for good reason, because the seer stones used to translate the Book of Mormon were also used to see evil treasure guardians when Joseph Smith was a money-digger. Your emphasis on what Joseph Smith called them is actually moot, as there should be some description of what your theorized Urim and Thummim looked like, because we know what the Nephite interpreters and seer stones looked like.

Thanks for answering the questions though... it makes for a much more pleasant exchange of dialog.

[_Tobin]

thews,

Most of your response is a jumble and makes little to no sense to me, so I'll just ignore it. The only thing I'll respond to is that it is known that Joseph Smith did remove the seer stones from the bows on the U&T.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones

Joseph also seems to have sometimes removed the Nephite stones from the "silver bows" which held them like spectacles, and used them as individual seer stones. Joseph used his white seer stone sometimes "for convenience" during the translation of the 116 pages with Martin Harris; later witnesses reported him using his brown seer stone. [23. See Mark Ashurst-McGee, "A Pathway to Prophethood: Joseph Smith Junior as Rodsman, Village Seer, and Judeo-Christian Prophet," (Master's Thesis, University of Utah, Logan, Utah, 2000), 320–326]

[_thews]

thews,

Most of your response is a jumble and makes little to no sense to me, so I'll just ignore it.

You ignore a lot to confirm your arguments from silence Tobin. The truth is, even the quote you used below further shows that the Urim and Thummim is attached to the Nephite spectacles used on the lost 116 pages only. Your argument that you are correct and FairMormon and LDS publications are incorrect shows your lack of critical thinking abilities. Why is it so difficult for you to just admit the truth?

The only thing I'll respond to is that it is known that Joseph Smith did remove the seer stones from the bows on the U&T.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones

Joseph also seems to have sometimes removed the Nephite stones from the "silver bows" which held them like spectacles, and used them as individual seer stones. Joseph used his white seer stone sometimes "for convenience" during the translation of the 116 pages with Martin Harris; later witnesses reported him using his brown seer stone. [23. See Mark Ashurst-McGee, "A Pathway to Prophethood: Joseph Smith Junior as Rodsman, Village Seer, and Judeo-Christian Prophet," (Master's Thesis, University of Utah, Logan, Utah, 2000), 320–326]

One more thing Tobin, Joseph Smith's brother Hyrum suggested he use the "Urim and Thummim" in 1843. Since the LDS church has both the white and chocolate seer stones used by Joseph Smith, what happened to your theorized version of the "Urim and Thummim" Hyrum was referring to?

http://restorationbookstore.org/article ... s/hsfp.htm

The following statement was sworn to before John T. Caine, a notary public, in Salt Lake City, Feb. 16,1874....

"On the morning of the 12th of July, 1843, Joseph and Hyrum Smith came into the office in the upper story of the 'brick store,' on the bank of the Mississippi River. They were talking on the subject of plural marriage. Hyrum said to Joseph, 'If you will write the revelation on celestial marriage, I will take and read it to Emma, and I believe I can convince her of its truth, and you will hereafter have peace.' Joseph smiled and remarked, 'You do not know Emma as well as I do.' Hyrum repeated his opinion and further remarked, 'The doctrine is so plain, I can convince any reasonable man or woman of its truth, purity or heavenly origin,' or words to their effect Joseph then said, 'Well, I will write the revelation and we will see.' He then requested me to get paper and prepare to write. Hyrum very urgently requested Joseph to write the revelation by means of the Urim and Thummim, but Joseph, in reply, said he did not need to, for he knew the revelation perfectly from beginning to end.

[_Tobin]

Why is it so difficult for you to just admit the truth?

I've stated the truth as factually and clearly as I can. Your confusion and often incoherent remarks is simply a reflection of your failure to accept the facts and grasp basic concepts.

One more thing Tobin, Joseph Smith's brother Hyrum suggested he use the "Urim and Thummim" in 1843. Since the LDS church has both the white and chocolate seer stones used by Joseph Smith, what happened to your theorized version of the "Urim and Thummim" Hyrum was referring to?

The Lord has the U&T and the plates too. This is well known and understood in Mormonism.