Apologists Harassing Critics

[_Shulem]

I don't know why people didn't just put him on ignore. I have him on ignore now, and if I see a post of his quoted I just scroll past it.

Y'all adults. You're asking other adults to moderate your behavior for you. Look. I think Grindael and IHAQ are the cat's pajamas. They're lambs. But they're adult “F” ing males. Grindael could literally have placed derptard on ignore and drove on.

G-man chose his own behavior and while I stand in personal solidarity with him I really don't like this idea of control just being ceded over to more people who will, they WILL, have subjective moderating standards.

We actually have really good moderation right now, and we have good control measures in place. You know what the best control measure is? It's self-control.

- Doc

Yep. I agree with you, absolutely. I had him on ignore for years because I felt he was trolling and playing mind games. Only recently I took him off ignore to check things out -- and I generally avoid this kind of drama.

Look, just ignore the dude. Let him poop where he will and walk past it. Eventually the moderators will catch wind of it and see the piles of poop and take action as needed. When he poops in perfectly good threads it just makes the position of the church look weak and goes to show that Mormonism has no real answers to their sad dilemma.

In the case of grindael, he should feel honored that a Mormon troll is pooping in his threads because it's a sure sign that he has won his case and the apologists are stumped. Mental is just gnashing his teeth and foaming at the mouth . . . .

[_Lemmie]

I came by just to lurk, but I find myself utterly confused by the present thread. Could someone briefly bring me up to speed?

background threads:

"what does a troll really want?"

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=47430

and

"Strawman."

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35723

[_Maksutov]

I never report anyone. I've put a couple on ignore. I don't like to. I'm happy to disagree as you all know but do not like silencing people.

But while I support another go because I support Shades I do not support MG. He has clearly shown his intellectual dishonesty and personal vindictiveness and the board is less for it. He has gone after particular individuals and I do think it is to silence them. Compassion has its limits.

One. More. Time. And if MG starts up again all bets are off. This really is ridiculous. It's like somebody grabbing the mike in the middle of someone else's speech. It's a troll holding the rest hostage. And I'm convinced it's a faith-based motivation, which makes it more problematic for me.

Oh, and Res Ipsa and Water Dog, lecturing the rest of us on our outrage, can kiss my ass. Want to play patty cake with trolls, be my guest. Wait until one comes after you for years and see how you like it. Your condescension is not transcendence--you just haven't been crap on yet. Grindael is a substantial researcher and I don't see either of you replacing him, but perhaps you can contribute the kind of circular inanities that will impress your friend MG.

I'm not out to make enemies but look at what you're defending. Do you want to reward him? Do you want to see more MGs invade the board once the TBMs see how easy it is to cripple discussion?

[_Res Ipsa]

Mak, it looks like I've pissed you off. I'm sorry for that; it certainly wasn't my intent to piss anyone off. I also didn't intend to lecture anyone on their outrage. I understand completely why people feel outraged at MG's treatment of Grindael and I certainly didn't intend to say that they were wrong for feeling that way. I also apologize for any condescension. I don't see myself as smarter or better than most folks here. In fact, just the opposite. I struggle to keep up with lots of folks here, both intellectually and morally.

I'm just a guy posting on the internet -- trying to figure crap out. If I'm understanding you, I caused you some pain. And I'm truly sorry for that.

[_Maksutov]

Mak, it looks like I've pissed you off. I'm sorry for that; it certainly wasn't my intent to piss anyone off. I also didn't intend to lecture anyone on their outrage. I understand completely why people feel outraged at MG's treatment of Grindael and I certainly didn't intend to say that they were wrong for feeling that way. I also apologize for any condescension. I don't see myself as smarter or better than most folks here. In fact, just the opposite. I struggle to keep up with lots of folks here, both intellectually and morally.

I'm just a guy posting on the internet -- trying to figure ____ out. If I'm understanding you, I caused you some pain. And I'm truly sorry for that.

Emotions are a bit raw now. We're at a crossroads in this board. It's a defining moment. I don't feel pain, I see injustice and I have opinions on that. Nothing personal against you or the Dog. You've both produced quality posts. But on this subject I will be vocal and I have little interest in considering the feelings of malicious trolls who have asserted and demonstrated their character and their intent countless times.

It resonates greatly with me what Kish said: that we are told that we need to step around the increasing number of cowpies left by trolls. At some point the system becomes jammed with deliberate sabotage. I'm paranoid enough to believe that there are folks out there who would love to monkey wrench this board any way they can, and this is a very effective way, using our own freedom of speech against us.

[_RockSlider]

The one's Shades will take under his wing and the ones he seems to toss out always amaze me.

[_Res Ipsa]

Mak, it looks like I've pissed you off. I'm sorry for that; it certainly wasn't my intent to piss anyone off. I also didn't intend to lecture anyone on their outrage. I understand completely why people feel outraged at MG's treatment of Grindael and I certainly didn't intend to say that they were wrong for feeling that way. I also apologize for any condescension. I don't see myself as smarter or better than most folks here. In fact, just the opposite. I struggle to keep up with lots of folks here, both intellectually and morally.

I'm just a guy posting on the internet -- trying to figure ____ out. If I'm understanding you, I caused you some pain. And I'm truly sorry for that.

Emotions are a bit raw now. We're at a crossroads in this board. It's a defining moment. I don't feel pain, I see injustice and I have opinions on that. Nothing personal against you or the Dog. You've both produced quality posts. But on this subject I will be vocal and I have little interest in considering the feelings of malicious trolls who have asserted and demonstrated their character and their intent countless times.

It resonates greatly with me what Kish said: that we are told that we need to step around the increasing number of cowpies left by trolls. At some point the system becomes jammed with deliberate sabotage. I'm paranoid enough to believe that there are folks out there who would love to monkey wrench this board any way they can, and this is a very effective way, using our own freedom of speech against us.

Yeah, it's pretty clear that emotions are raw, and I think that's perfectly understandable. But I don't see this as either a crossroads or a defining moment. In my opinion, it's a common problem that occurs in online forums -- especially forums that hold free speech a core value. I don't have the tenure here that lots of folks do, but I'd be shocked if this is the first time here that someone has quit the board because of the behavior of another poster. Maybe it feels bigger because Grindael is so highly regarded. Or maybe because the interactions between Grindael and his defenders and MG got so ugly. I don't know.

I think Kish's analogy is interesting, but I'm actually not sure how to think about it. One of the consequences of placing a high value on free speech is having to dodge the cowpies. On a message board, dodging the cowpies requires minimal effort. I have a couple of posters on ignore because, in my opinion, they produce nothing but cowpies. Or, if I don't use the ignore feature, I can choose not to read. Or if I read, I can choose not to react. It's like something some famous guy said: "freedom of speech means freedom for the cowpies we dodge." Or something like that.

I used the word pain because I associate anger with pain. When I see injustice, I feel pain. And when I see someone facilitating or condoning injustice, I feel pain. At bottom, that's what I think an apology is all about: Hey fellow human, I'm sorry for the pain I've caused you. I didn't mean to do that.

Something like that.

[_Kishkumen]

At some point the system becomes jammed with deliberate sabotage. I'm paranoid enough to believe that there are folks out there who would love to monkey wrench this board any way they can, and this is a very effective way, using our own freedom of speech against us.

I think there is some truth to that. I don't know what to do about it, or what is good to do about it. We don't want to compromise the quality of the board in an attempt to preserve it. I do understand that the libertarian approach has its clear advantages. Inasmuch as we will suffer Shulem asking the same question endlessly, why could we not endure mg doing the same dumb crap relentlessly?

I don't know. I guess I can, but then I have the luxury of doing so. Honestly I don't care as much as others here do, but I know that I care about them a lot more than I care for mg. That said, I really don't want mg simply to leave. I want more and better Mormon posters. I want a greater variety of Mormon posters. We are also not willing to do what it would take to attract them.

Perhaps I need to be happy that we have what we have and let it ride. I am fine with this for me. It really gets me when people leave and don't come back. So many have, though. You would think I would be used to it now. Beastie, Blixa, Runtu, Darth J, Stak, truth dancer, Ray A, Eric, Nyal, now IHAQ, grindael. Grindael really hurts because his posts are absolutely indispensable primary source material.

[_Kishkumen]

I think Kish's analogy is interesting, but I'm actually not sure how to think about it. One of the consequences of placing a high value on free speech is having to dodge the cowpies. On a message board, dodging the cowpies requires minimal effort. I have a couple of posters on ignore because, in my opinion, they produce nothing but cowpies. Or, if I don't use the ignore feature, I can choose not to read. Or if I read, I can choose not to react. It's like something some famous guy said: "freedom of speech means freedom for the cowpies we dodge." Or something like that.

Yeah, I know. You are right. Hey, I grew up on a farm so road apples and cow pies were part of life. I am not so personally put out by them. I do think that we will remain a pretty small, self selecting group because of what we tolerate in both directions. We relish the lampooning of Mormonism, even obviously highly offensive lampooning, and on the other hand we welcome the few Mormons who will brave that, and, with notable exceptions, those few who can are not infrequently mentally quirky people.

It just burns to see people leave. I hate it. And the people I see leave feel more like family than mg ever will. I would dare say that I feel more of a loss to have Simon Belmont gone, and I am happier to have Stem back, than I would be about mg one way or the other. It's just that I don't connect with mg. I am sorry I am making this very personal, but his reaction to the strong challenges to Mormon faith he sees here is very annoying and, also, quite personal in connection with grindael. That is where I see a real problem.

If DCP were here and Shulem were stalking him on the board calling him names and making fun of his personal appearance, I think we would ask the mods to do something about it, even if DCP is wildly unpopular here. Mg has been given a surprising amount of latitude to shadow grindael and harass him. I wonder why that is. Is the fact that he is one of the only Mormon apologists of any sort who can stick around for any length of time such an asset that we are willing to put up with him more than we would tolerate one of our own acting similarly?

Is my perception of this hopelessly skewed?

[_RockSlider]

Lurking here has actually become annoying, trying to wade through (past?) the exchanges from both parties. I can only imagine there are others out there similarly tired of the drama. I am not keen on censorship, but if neither wants to contribute to the actual discussion and instead just wants to troll, then why allow them to impede the intelligent discourse? I walk away from such foolishness in person, and it is not like the community members (or moderators on their behalf) have to tolerate it here.

I don't understand how easily intelligent people allow spam trolling (trolling to destroy the readability of threads, distracting them from the OP's intent). It sounds like grindael is having some RL stress at this time and has taken a break. MG's spam trolling has become all the more rewarding to have been successful in driving him away. But ten fold must be the reward for this whole episode blowing up to such a fervor of several major MDB players threatening to leave.

I shake my head in disbelief of how successful MG has been. Kudos to MG for being of mediocre intelligence taking out several of the brightest around here, simply because they can not ignore the buzzing fly dropping fly turds, which everyone then turns into large wet cow pies.