The Experience of God

[Dr Exiled]

Thanks Stem for discussing these issues, for reading Hart's book so we don't have to. It seems like a waste of time from the outset. The God Hart and his fellow religionists believe in remains invisible and they are obviously left guessing. They can't prove that their God even exists and so a little smugness, dismissiveness, an appeal to secret knowledge, claims that unbelievers aren't smart like they are .... this is all they have.

God could easily appear and clear things up, but, God doesn't. He only supposedly appears in secret or in a way that leaves fraud and delusion as explanations for the supposed appearances, or leaving it to a smug academic to explain by looking down on the little people because they force the smug to respond.

No thanks on the religion thing until some answers are provided by the one we are supposedly supposed to worship. It clearly looks and smells like we are actually worshipping the bozos that are taking money in God's name, and that is where this God leaves it. Ill take Pascale and wager that these people don't know what they are talking about.

[dastardly stem]

Hope this helped.

Regards,
MG

Sure. Helps me see where you're coming from. THanks.

[dastardly stem]

Sure, if God does care, and if caring seems to mean what humans say it means, then I agree it's hard to see why God would care about humans above other life forms and impossible to imagine caring about one tribe of human religion more than another. In that gulf of mental power, it's hard to imagine how God would be offended by disbelief, or glorified by praise and worship. If there's a sick bird in my backyard, and let's say I want to help it, the bird might go along with it or might try to fight me. If I like birds, I don't take it personal either way. I might even find the fighter more endearing.

That's what I'll be banking on. When I have to go and stand before him, I'm hoping he'll appreciate my scrappy nature, or something.

A God who demands worship, like all judeo-Chrstian-islamic religions teach, sets the example for and thus empowers narcissists and psychopaths; that is, if he inspires anything.

[dastardly stem]

God could easily appear and clear things up, but, God doesn't. He only supposedly appears in secret or in a way that leaves fraud and delusion as explanations for the supposed appearances, or leaving it to a smug academic to explain by looking down on the little people because they force the smug to respond.

Thanks Dr. Exiled. I agree. If God really cared about us, or wanted us to see something that he does, he'd clear up the confusion. Hart's God delights in confusion and misinformation.

[MG 2.0]

MG: we have certain understandings which might be referred to as the ‘standardized model’ when we try to wrap our minds around the numinous and metaphysical. Different cultures have unique and often different models. God can and does work in and through all of them. The scriptures tell us that God is in and through ALL things. I believe this is so that we as individuals can slowly…or speedily…come to know Him. He doesn’t force feed Himself to us. If we want small measures/bites, fine. If we want greater measure/knowledge that evolves beyond metaphorical boundaries, then fine.

Anyway, what you see/want is what you get, but ultimately there is an eternal TRUTH. In a number of ways I think Mormonism comes closer to approximating that truth in more ways than other modes of ‘seeing God’. Mormonism teaches:

So what you're saying is that there are many different beliefs about God in the world. All of them have truth in them because "the scriptures" tell you so.

The LDS ‘Quad’ may allude to this. That isn’t my ‘because’ though. With the different evolutionary paths humanity has taken culturally, geopolitically, technologically, genetic predispositions, and responses to the magical/metaphysical world…and later the sciences…it just makes good ol’ common sense that a Creator would find various ways and means to reach out and touch the creation according to understandings and choices made along the way. Granted, if a space alien came and observed this over a long period of time they might just as well observe no actual god in the process. And that’s where you’re coming from I suppose.

Except for very few instances along the way in my opinion, God has remained elusive and hidden. And in those few instances there aren’t any news publications that were able to get the fact of the matter in print with photos to prove it.

Systemized models are instituted and maintained by followers. Thus, the great and not so great religions and other systems of belief throughout history. The question for me has always been whether or not the LDS Church stands out from the rest.

Presumably, these are your own scriptures. But, there is ultimately only one entirely true view of God, and Mormonism comes closest to that. From here, you have one of two choices. You must say that Mormonism comes closest to God because according to "the scriptures" -- the scriptures of Mormonism -- Mormonism is right. The other choice is that you personally know what the eternal truth of the universe is, independent of Mormonism, such that you can gauge Mormonism's success by this external standard.

It’s a mix. I would expect that the scriptures would generally dovetail with other sources of truth and understanding.

Juvenile and arrogant, MG, I mean, really bud.

To compare and contrast and make a choice? My choice doesn’t in any way impact the choice you make even if I happen to believe that my choice is the one that God would have me make. Other folks from other religious systems can say the same thing. You can go your own merry way, no harm, no foul. Unless YOU are taking scriptures seriously. Which you don’t. So no worries.

Sure, this "helps". Like, let's say a person wants to use circular reasoning better in order to justify themselves.

If it was just scriptures, then yes.

But it’s not. I would think that after all I’ve contributed along the way on this board you would know that it’s not as simple as that. For me. Non believers seem to have a tendency to coalesce believers into/onto one standard/template of presumptive knowledge. “They’re all the same! Rubes all!” As though YOU have some hidden knowledge and understanding of individuals in particular BECAUSE they believe.

And you once did. Special knowledge.

That view, in one way or another, is expressed over and over again on this board.

Now THAT is a bit arrogant.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

As though YOU have some hidden knowledge and understanding of individuals in particular BECAUSE they believe.

MG,

You often use this same trick when you tell us you were an atheist or some such at one point in your life. Dan Peterson claims the same.

I take you and Dan at your word that you've had these experiences. The least you can do is take us at our word that we were also at one time devout believers and thus have some insight into the mind of believers.

[MG 2.0]

As though YOU have some hidden knowledge and understanding of individuals in particular BECAUSE they believe.

MG,

You often use this same trick…

No trickery. I’m being strictly honest with no hidden agenda except to speak MY truth. And my experience. I realize your mileage will vary.

Regards,
MG

[Dr Exiled]

MG,

You often use this same trick…

No trickery. I’m being strictly honest with no hidden agenda except to speak MY truth. And my experience. I realize your mileage will vary.

Regards,
MG

No trickery except burden shifting. God is invisible and so it is on par with anything imaginary, until there is tangible proof. He is supposedly so important that he refuses to appear and explain himself and supposedly uses persons that get a secret hidden view of him and those views are always just too sacred to tell us little people. In the meantime, give until it hurts, so say the priest class, because there will be some reward in the future that we cannot explain but after leaving the fancy building the poor dupes furnished, we have a feeling that it will be glorious and so continue to give ...

Sorry, it looks like fraud or delusion because it is. Your attempts to have us prove non-existence doesn't go anywhere. It is your burden to prove the invisible. Until you do so, your smugness or pretense that your emotional experiences mean anything must fall on deaf ears. Logic demands it. Even so, I get it. What else can you say? The big guy continues to leave you and your fellow believers hanging when it comes to proof.

It's like the experience I had with a magic penny I picked up one day. It seemed to have the secrets of the universe, or so I felt, but, I could never adequately explain its greatness to anyone else. Just believe in the penny, the magic penny everyone, I used to say. If you believe in it, then it will show you things, even hidden treasures of knowledge, I pleaded. Yet, one day, an obvious negative person, non-believer, pseudo intellectual, obviously, demanded proof and I could only turn it on him, demanding that he prove that the magic penny wasn't the source of all gnostic mystery. He couldn't and so, haha, I was victorious! You should have seen it MG 2.0, it was simply amazing!

Now, for those negative ninnies, anti-magic penny cretins, good luck and I hope you live a good life my friends. Brethren, adieu!

[MG 2.0]

Your attempts to have us prove non-existence doesn't go anywhere.

I don’t think I’ve ever pressed you to prove the non existence of God.

Regards,
MG

[huckelberry]

Sure, if God does care, and if caring seems to mean what humans say it means, then I agree it's hard to see why God would care about humans above other life forms and impossible to imagine caring about one tribe of human religion more than another. In that gulf of mental power, it's hard to imagine how God would be offended by disbelief, or glorified by praise and worship. If there's a sick bird in my backyard, and let's say I want to help it, the bird might go along with it or might try to fight me. If I like birds, I don't take it personal either way. I might even find the fighter more endearing.

That's what I'll be banking on. When I have to go and stand before him, I'm hoping he'll appreciate my scrappy nature, or something.

A God who demands worship, like all judeo-Chrstian-islamic religions teach, sets the example for and thus empowers narcissists and psychopaths; that is, if he inspires anything.

dasterdly stem, I find the phrase demanding worship a bit odd. I checked the ten commandments and did not find this demand. I checked the sermon on the mount and somehow this demand is missing.In terms of common speech about church services, worship services are about communion and thankfulness.