DiscussMormonism.com

MG 2.0 wrote:When you say Faith Matters is “fluff” you are doing so in such a way, at least in my opinion, as to set yourself apart as someone who has greater knowledge and insight than ‘the masses’ of folks that “stay in the boat”.

Wow. So you didn't actually read what I wrote, and decided to form an opinion on what I wrote that has nothing to do with what I actually wrote?

If you go back and read what I actually wrote, You'll see that I was contrasting what Faith Matters produces to what FARMS and Hugh Nibley produced. I said that though FARMS may be wrong, their materials still offered the best evidential case they could muster for the Church. It wasn't "fluff". Many of those who you cited, the "giants" such as Brandt Gardner are a dying breed, according to you (and you're right in this case) with the Church and its PR departments focusing on just-so Reader's Digest feel-good Harvey Milquetoast nonsense. I said that your grandchildren won't have a Brandt Gardner or Tyrell Givens to look up to in their time.

MG 2.0 wrote:On the assumption that Christ’s Gospel, and all that this entails (including Mormonism) is True, with a capital T, one might reasonably expect that this gospel would be accessible to ANYONE

On the assumption that Xenu was the ruler of the galaxy and brought billions of citizens of the Galactic Confederacy to the prison planet called earth, trapping them and blowing them up in volcanoes so their souls float about and attach to humans as "body thetans", how could anyone reasonably come to know such a thing unless they spend significant time with an auditor to run the tracks the thetans are stuck in?

If you have another way to detect a body thetan outside an intense auditing session I'm listing.

MG 2.0 wrote: It was, if you choose to believe it, foretold that the ‘very elect’ would be deceived.

All religions have a similar belief to hedge their bets against people leaving. Even Heaven's Gate had prophecies and warnings that people of earth would reject their message.

Here's something to think about:

All of these intellectual giants in the Church, whether Nibley, Gardner, Givens, or whoever -- how many of them became Phds first and then discovered the gospel? And how many were active Mormons before going to school to study?

Sorry, I'm talking to MG 1.9 right now, who had been arguing about the existence of great intellectuals who haven't left, and now the hairpin turn to elect being deceived and everything must be really simple and we don't need to complicate it.

Rivendale wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 28, 2023 10:12 pm

MG 2.0 wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 28, 2023 10:03 pm

President Hinckley said years ago that “ The Lord is fulfilling His promise that His gospel shall be as the stone cut out of the mountain without hands which would roll forth and fill the whole earth, as Daniel saw in vision.”

Notice that the gospel will roll forth and fill the whole earth. It doesn’t say much about numbers, if anything. Think of the age of the internet that we are now a part of. The gospel is, by and large, available to a large portion of the earth through online means. Not everywhere, but in a whole lot of places it wasn’t penetrating before.

Who knows what the future will bring?

Nonetheless, “few there be that find it”.

Regards,
MG

That seems to be the new switch. Are you really really wanting to plant your flag on the fact that throughout Mormonism's history it wasn't proclaimed to envelope the Earth? I will never understand the logistics of some deity that has a plan that has so few that has the truth whispered in their ear.

When it doesn't come true, just change what it means!

drumdude wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 27, 2023 6:06 am

Moksha wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 27, 2023 5:20 am

That's the one where Everybody Wang Chung described Dr. Peterson as the Willy Loman of Mopologetics.

God bless him.

I know it won’t even make page 10 of the Times when DCP passes but the man is an absolute treasure in post-Mormon circles. I’ll be sad when he’s not around to amuse us any longer.

Calling him the Willy Loman of mopologetics is such a sick burn.

Rivendale wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 28, 2023 10:12 pm

MG 2.0 wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 28, 2023 10:03 pm

President Hinckley said years ago that “ The Lord is fulfilling His promise that His gospel shall be as the stone cut out of the mountain without hands which would roll forth and fill the whole earth, as Daniel saw in vision.”

Notice that the gospel will roll forth and fill the whole earth. It doesn’t say much about numbers, if anything. Think of the age of the internet that we are now a part of. The gospel is, by and large, available to a large portion of the earth through online means. Not everywhere, but in a whole lot of places it wasn’t penetrating before.

Who knows what the future will bring?

Nonetheless, “few there be that find it”.

Regards,
MG

That seems to be the new switch. Are you really really wanting to plant your flag on the fact that throughout Mormonism's history it wasn't proclaimed to envelope the Earth? I will never understand the logistics of some deity that has a plan that has so few that has the truth whispered in their ear.

The ratio between those that have the truth “whispered” into their ear through one means or another, especially now through the internet…and either brush it off or see it as a hoax, etc…has got got be somewhere in the 99:1 range. Or more likely in the 1000:1 or 10000:1 range. We’ll never really know.

Very few will find it…meaning accept it.

But yeah, I’m willing to see this prophecy of the latter days fulfilled in the words/language I clipped from Pres. Hinckley.

Regards,
MG

Gadianton wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:25 pm

MG 2.0 wrote:When you say Faith Matters is “fluff” you are doing so in such a way, at least in my opinion, as to set yourself apart as someone who has greater knowledge and insight than ‘the masses’ of folks that “stay in the boat”.

Wow. So you didn't actually read what I wrote, and decided to form an opinion on what I wrote that has nothing to do with what I actually wrote?

Wow. So you didn’t actually interact with my post.

Gadianton, I’m sorry…but you come across as arrogant. THAT’S what my post was concerned with as I responded to the tone and tenor of your post and others like it over time.

It would be interesting to ‘break bread’ with you and see if you come across as condescending, etc.

Regards,
MG

Gadianton wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:25 pm

...I was contrasting what Faith Matters produces to what FARMS and Hugh Nibley produced. I said that though FARMS may be wrong, their materials still offered the best evidential case they could muster for the Church. It wasn't "fluff". Many of those who you cited, the "giants" such as Brandt Gardner are a dying breed, according to you (and you're right in this case) with the Church and its PR departments focusing on just-so Reader's Digest feel-good Harvey Milquetoast nonsense. I said that your grandchildren won't have a Brandt Gardner or Tyrell Givens to look up to in their time.

MG 2.0 wrote:On the assumption that Christ’s Gospel, and all that this entails (including Mormonism) is True, with a capital T, one might reasonably expect that this gospel would be accessible to ANYONE

On the assumption that Xenu was the ruler of the galaxy and brought billions of citizens of the Galactic Confederacy to the prison planet called earth, trapping them and blowing them up in volcanoes so their souls float about and attach to humans as "body thetans", how could anyone reasonably come to know such a thing unless they spend significant time with an auditor to run the tracks the thetans are stuck in?

If you have another way to detect a body thetan outside an intense auditing session I'm listing.

MG 2.0 wrote: It was, if you choose to believe it, foretold that the ‘very elect’ would be deceived.

All religions have a similar belief to hedge their bets against people leaving. Even Heaven's Gate had prophecies and warnings that people of earth would reject their message.

Here's something to think about:

All of these intellectual giants in the Church, whether Nibley, Gardner, Givens, or whoever -- how many of them became Phds first and then discovered the gospel? And how many were active Mormons before going to school to study?

Sorry, I'm talking to MG 1.9 right now, who had been arguing about the existence of great intellectuals who haven't left, and now the hairpin turn to elect being deceived and everything must be really simple and we don't need to complicate it.

Yes, it"s an odd detour, but not the first by any means for this apologist.

Marcus wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 29, 2023 1:16 am

Yes, it"s an odd detour, but not the first by any means for this apologist.

As is par for the course, you have absolutely nothing to add to the conversation.

Regards,
MG

MG 2.0 wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 29, 2023 1:02 am

Gadianton wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:25 pm

Wow. So you didn't actually read what I wrote, and decided to form an opinion on what I wrote that has nothing to do with what I actually wrote?

Wow. So you didn’t actually interact with my post.

Gadianton, I’m sorry…but you come across as arrogant. THAT’S what my post was concerned with as I responded to the tone and tenor of your post and others like it over time.

Ah, come on, MG. Tell me you didn't involuntarily snort-laugh when you read this:

Gadianton wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:25 pm

Sorry, I'm talking to MG 1.9 right now, who had been arguing about the existence of great intellectuals who haven't left, and now the hairpin turn to elect being deceived and everything must be really simple and we don't need to complicate it.

MG 2.0 wrote:Wow. So you didn’t actually interact with my post.

I originally wrote a post saying that Faith matters is fluff in contrast to FARMS, which was real substance, even if wrong.

You responded twisting my words into something self-aggrandizing; about how smart I think I am, which isn't what I think at all.

I interacted with your post by correcting you, and reminding you of what my original post actually said.

It seems like you're demanding that we not discuss my actual comments about the contrast between FM and FARMS and only discuss your misrepresentation of what I said. very strange, MG.

Gadianton wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:25 pm

Sorry, I'm talking to MG 1.9 right now, who had been arguing about the existence of great intellectuals who haven't left, and now the hairpin turn to elect being deceived and everything must be really simple and we don't need to complicate it.

According to the CoJCoLDS, who, currently are "the elect"?

Is it impossible that they are being deceived, and the devil is cheating their souls, and leading them away carefully down to hell?