LDS Church uses charitable donations to support Prop 1 battle in Idaho

[Everybody Wang Chung]

God actually seems okay with ending pregnancies since 15% to 20% of them end up in miscarriages.

True. And for most of history, the Almighty was remarkably chill about half of all children dying before their first birthday.

[I Have Questions]

God actually seems okay with ending pregnancies since 15% to 20% of them end up in miscarriages.

God is also okay with having children born into abusive situations.

Why are the men of the Church rallying against a pregnant woman’s agency? Isn’t the removal of agency Satan’s plan?

[Chap]

Trouble is, I could never get MG to explain clearly at what point between a not yet implanted fertilised ovum and the birth of a live baby he thinks that a human life is actually present for the first time. That makes rational discussion well night impossible.

This does NOT negate my arguments. You merely want to go sideways rather than moving forward and engaging with what I've said.

I honestly don't think you can. What comments I have heard are pretty much based on selfishness and the disregard for human life...no matter when it begins.

Regards,
MG

Your argument against abortion is that it involves the termination of a human life, right?

But does a fertilised but non-implanted ovum have a human life? If not, ending a pregnancy at that stage does not involve the termination of a human life.

And so on through each stage of a pregnancy, until you reach the stage when you (MG) feel able to say "Stop! a human life has begun! You must not perform an abortion now, because that would end a human life".

So please (pretty please ...) tell us: according to you, at what stage in a pregnancy, according to you, has a human life actually begun?

[Rivendale]

God actually seems okay with ending pregnancies since 15% to 20% of them end up in miscarriages.

True. And for most of history, the Almighty was remarkably chill about half of all children dying before their first birthday.

And MG seems to think when humans for whatever reason terminates a pregnancy it places a burden on the spirit insertion process. It interrupts a potential child of god as if that process cannot be repeated. Miscarriage events apparently have no problem (since it's nature running its course) which implies the actual act can be restarted without penalties to the sky wizard.

[Limnor]

True. And for most of history, the Almighty was remarkably chill about half of all children dying before their first birthday.

And MG seems to think when humans for whatever reason terminates a pregnancy it places a burden on the spirit insertion process. It interrupts a potential child of god as if that process cannot be repeated. Miscarriage events apparently have no problem (since it's nature running its course) which implies the actual act can be restarted without penalties to the sky wizard.

This is a fascinating line of thought. If a pregnancy ends in miscarriage, does the eternal intelligence/spirit baby return to where it came from and await another body, or does it go in to the spirit world having completed its mortal probation?And if the spirit returns to premortal existence, can it be assigned to another pregnancy?

Should we make laws governing everyone based on religious claims whose own adherents admit they cannot fully explain?

[Rivendale]

And MG seems to think when humans for whatever reason terminates a pregnancy it places a burden on the spirit insertion process. It interrupts a potential child of god as if that process cannot be repeated. Miscarriage events apparently have no problem (since its nature running its course) which implies the actual act can be restarted without penalties to the sky wizard.

This is a fascinating line of thought. If a pregnancy ends in miscarriage, does the eternal intelligence/spirit baby return to where it came from and await another body, or does it go in to the spirit world having completed its mortal probation?And if the spirit returns to premortal existence, can it be assigned to another pregnancy?

Should we make laws governing everyone based on religious claims whose own adherents admit they cannot fully explain?

This is where one of many religious influences has issues. It is similar to the problem of evil in that it asserts free will takes ultimate priority yet they institute guard rails to insure that agency is curtailed. From the believers perspective death is nothing but a transition from one realm to another so no death can cause any moral travesty yet it isn’t treated like this . MG ignores the arguments on this thread that ask if mandatory organ or tissue donation should be mandatory to save another life presumably because it interferes with the spirit insertion phase and the ontological framework he is a prisoner of. He also has a generic weak defense of the fact that elohiml/yeshua is the king of abortionists deleting nearly 1/4 of spirit containers because their world was created is designed to randomly kill.

[MG 2.0]

That's nature taking its course. In my interactions with you I come away thinking you believe in the natural world...evolution and human biology being a part of that?

Miscarriages/spontaneous abortions occur in a world where nature/biology take their course.

I have not heard ONE good argument against the actual substance of what I've presented on this thread.

Regards,
MG

According to your worldview the entire universe is setup by god therefore nature's way is God's actions.

First part, yes. Second part, no.

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

This is a fascinating line of thought. If a pregnancy ends in miscarriage, does the eternal intelligence/spirit baby return to where it came from and await another body, or does it go in to the spirit world having completed its mortal probation?And if the spirit returns to premortal existence, can it be assigned to another pregnancy?

Should we make laws governing everyone based on religious claims whose own adherents admit they cannot fully explain?

This is where one of many religious influences has issues. It is similar to the problem of evil in that it asserts free will takes ultimate priority yet they institute guard rails to insure that agency is curtailed. From the believers perspective death is nothing but a transition from one realm to another so no death can cause any moral travesty yet it isn’t treated like this . MG ignores the arguments on this thread that ask if mandatory organ or tissue donation should be mandatory to save another life presumably because it interferes with the spirit insertion phase and the ontological framework he is a prisoner of. He also has a generic weak defense of the fact that elohiml/yeshua is the king of abortionists deleting nearly 1/4 of spirit containers because their world was created is designed to randomly kill.

I agree with Limnor that these are really interesting thoughts. You have clearly articulated the two-faced nature of the Church - the contrast between the doctrine it preaches and the actions it tries to influence. Why is the LDS patriarchy seeking to hinder the agency of pregnant women in Idaho?

I’ll give another example. We have a semi-faithful member of the Church make sporadic visits to the board. His defence of why pedaphiles are called to positions in the church where they can gain access to their victims, is to protect the agency of the pedaphile, so as to not remove their ability to choose. Now the church is advocating the reverse of that. That pregnant women should have their agency restricted. That’s how dumb defending Mormonism makes you look.

Church leaders lack the faith to trust women in Idaho to do what they, the patriarchy, have decided is the right thing. And so they are seeking to remove the agency of those women, in favour of dictating the situation via legislation. That, according to Mormonism, is Satan’s plan.

[Chap]

According to your worldview the entire universe is setup by god therefore nature's way is God's actions.

First part, yes. Second part, no.

Regards,
MG

Let's see ... MG's deity set up the universe and laid down the rules by which it runs. OK, so he set up a universe in which there can be very big physically strong entities, who are left free to torture and kill weaker ones who have done no harm. (Think big tough man who enjoys raping and murdering little pre-teen girls, for instance).

If one of those weak and harmless victims goes to MG's deity after being raped and murdered and says "Hey, you placed me in an environment where the rules of the game you set up meant that horrible strong people were free to do bad stuff to me if they wanted to. And one of them did. Why did you set up such a horrible world where that could happen to me, and put me in it?" Then what does MG's deity do? Shrugs and says "That's free-will for you, sweetie-pie!"?

Will someone explain what better answer MG's deity can give to that particular little girl?

[Rivendale]

First part, yes. Second part, no.

Regards,
MG

Let's see ... MG's deity set up the universe and laid down the rules by which it runs. OK, so he set up a universe in which there can be very big physically strong entities, who are left free to torture and kill weaker ones who have done no harm. (Think big tough man who enjoys raping and murdering little pre-teen girls, for instance).

If one of those weak and harmless victims goes to MG's deity after being raped and murdered and says "Hey, you placed me in an environment where the rules of the game you set up meant that horrible strong people were free to do bad stuff to me if they wanted to. And one of them did. Why did you set up such a horrible world where that could happen to me, and put me in it?" Then what does MG's deity do? Shrugs and says "That's free-will for you, sweetie-pie!"?

Will someone explain what better answer MG's deity can give to that particular little girl?

If someone designs a machine for the general public that randomly kills 20% of the people who use it MG would simply say that is nature running its course. There would be no need for accountability. MG seems to have the perspective that when a pedophile or another person SA's a child or another victim there will be recompense in heaven with the reanimated supreme primate that goes something like this. Hey sweetie pie see that man over there that killed your entire family and graped you? Go over and get to know him I forgave him.