MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

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_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

I was hoping to see some specific works on Young (are you talking about Lion of the Lord by Stanley P. Hirshson?) Arrington's American Moses would be a very good start. If you think believe all of the Utah Territory and Church members did whatever Brigham Young told them to do, or were always honest with him you have some more reading to do. ;)


Oh, you mean specific like "Lion of the Lord: Biography of the Mormon Leader Brigham Young"? And have you read Mormon Conflict, and can thereby judge that it didn't deal quite a bit with Brigham Young's leadership style? And Quinn's books don't deal with Young's leadership style? Are you actually saying that unless I read Arrington's book, nothing else counts? Wow.

I certainly do not believe that "all of the Utah Territory and the Church members did whatever BY told them to do, or were always honest with him." What a bizarre suggestion, completely unrelated to what I actually said. But I will try to parse it out for you:

There were many members in the area who knew exactly who the killers were. Many of these members actually refused to have anything to do with the killing. Many of these members were active, faithful Mormons before and after the massacre. What you are suggesting is that not a single one of these faithful members would have shared that information with BY, had he requested it. I find that quite an extraordinary claim. So, again, what have you read that suggested that BY invoked so little respect among so many faithful members, that not a single member would have provided this information to BY, had he requested it? I seriously doubt Arrington's book made such a suggestion. (by the way, I may have read Arrington's book but didn't recall with 100% certainty, so didn't offer it)

I think the people who really knew what happened swore not to tell. I don't think many people really knew what had happened, and those that did were sworn to secrecy. Things seem to be easier to evaluate looking back on it, but I would argue that at the time there were all sorts of stories circulating about the massacre, why it happened, etc. I see too many people here looking for soundbite answers to historical questions that would take much more time than I am willing to invest for their benefit on this subject.

To be specific, I have no doubt that certain people could lie to Brigham Young, yes.


Well, I have no doubt that certain people could lie to BY either. But that's not what your scenario requires. It requires that not a single member - out of all the members in the area who knew who the killers were, even if they refused to be involved - would share that information with the prophet of the Lord, if so requested. Again, that is an extraordinary claim. Just what did you read in Arrington's book that suggested such a wide-spread disrespect for the prophet of God?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

beastie wrote:
I was hoping to see some specific works on Young (are you talking about Lion of the Lord by Stanley P. Hirshson?) Arrington's American Moses would be a very good start. If you think believe all of the Utah Territory and Church members did whatever Brigham Young told them to do, or were always honest with him you have some more reading to do. ;)


And have you read Mormon Conflict, and can thereby judge that it didn't deal quite a bit with Brigham Young's leadership style? And Quinn's books don't deal with Young's leadership style? Are you actually saying that unless I read Arrington's book, nothing else counts? Wow.


I didn't say that at all. You know, the more I talk to you the less I want to. I'll stick with what I've read and continue to read, and I don't want to take the time to break it all down for you, especially when you respond this way. Good bye.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

I didn't say that at all. You know, the more I talk to you the less I want to. Good bye.


Well, I have to say, I am just shocked that you are exiting a conversation that has evolved to the point where you have to defend the literally unbelievable notion that not a single member would have provided that information to BY, had he so requested.

And you most certainly heavily implied that my reading was not adequate to obtain an idea of BY's leadership style. But you are not willing to defend that, either.

Good bye and good luck.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

Well, you edited your reply with something interesting:

I didn't say that at all. You know, the more I talk to you the less I want to. I'll stick with what I've read and continue to read, and I don't want to take the time to break it all down for you, especially when you respond this way. Good bye.


So it's ok for you to suggest that I was really saying that every person in Utah Territory would do exactly what BY told them to do, and not a single person would lie to him, and that what I've read is inadequate in terms of addressing BY's leadership, but what I said was beyond the pale?

You've gotten too used to the MAD style of debate - you know, the style where critics are held to a different standard than what is required of defenders of the faith.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Did you miss the wink icon? It was a little nudge of humor. Internet communication can hinder that sort of thing. Another good reason to duck out. No, beastie, it isn't because I am cowering or defeated. It is because I am tired of trying to reason with you. Regards.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Ray A

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Ray A »

According to Bigler, there are conflicting accounts of what happened. One version was that Young was not told the truth, and the "band" was sworn to secrecy. However, in Lee's later account, he said that he told Brigham Young "all the information there was to give" (three weeks later), upon which Young reacted with horror that women and children were involved. Lee said that Young ordered him to tell no one, and send him a letter as the Indian farmer, blaming the natives for the massacre.
_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

Did you miss the wink icon? It was a little nudge of humor. Internet communication can hinder that sort of thing. Another good reason to duck out. No, beastie, it isn't because I am cowering or defeated. It is because I am tired of trying to reason with you. Regards.


Of course. If only I were a reasonable person, I would immediately recognize that your suggestion - that not a single one of these faithful members would provide this information to BY if so requested - was eminently reasonable, logical, and supported by evidence. ;)

Don't miss the wink icon. It's a little nudge of humor.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_LifeOnaPlate
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Posts: 2799
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:50 pm

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

beastie wrote:You've gotten too used to the MAD style of debate - you know, the style where critics are held to a different standard than what is required of defenders of the faith.



Another good example of why I'll be ending my discussions with beastie.

You have a good point. Partially I am ducking out because I am used to the styles of debate on MAD. They involve people who have actually read the things they are talking about, they carry 90% less conjecture and innuendo (guesses, in other words), that your points in this thread consist of. You can make all of the bald assertions you'd like; you can talk about the improbability that anyone could lie to the great and powerful Young, because, hey, you just don't think that would be the case based on reading a few books. Good for you. After reading the books I have read I come to a different conclusion. Looks like our opinions cancel out, then. And if it is said I only reach my conclusions based on being a "TBM," I could counter that yours are only based on being an "apostate." I don't believe either approach is condicive to good conversation, however. If you think I'm speaking from a position that BY and others could do no wrong, you're talking to the wrong guy.

After a while it gets quite tiresome trying to show you that your preconceived notions are flawed. Frankly, it is very exhausting to carry on conversations with such negative people.

So, for now, good bye. I hope you find some happiness and fun today. I mean that.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

According to Bigler, there are conflicting accounts of what happened. One version was that Young was not told the truth, and the "band" was sworn to secrecy. However, in Lee's later account, he said that he told Brigham Young "all the information there was to give" (three weeks later), upon which Young reacted with horror that women and children were involved. Lee said that Young ordered him to tell no one, and send him a letter as the Indian farmer, blaming the natives for the massacre.


I have also read that there are conflicting accounts of what BY actually knew. What I think is indisputable is that at least some of the faithful members who knew who the killers were would have provided that information to the man they regarded as the prophet of God, if he had asked for that information. It is clear to me that if BY did not discover, in quick order, the identity of the killers it was due to the fact that he didn't want to know.

You have a good point. Partially I am ducking out because I am used to the styles of debate on MAD. They involve people who have actually read the things they are talking about, they carry 90% less conjecture and innuendo (guesses, in other words), that your points in this thread consist of. You can make all of the bald assertions you'd like; you can talk about the improbability that anyone could lie to the great and powerful Young, because, hey, you just don't think that would be the case based on reading a few books. Good for you. After reading the books I have read I come to a different conclusion. Looks like our opinions cancel out, then. And if it is said I only reach my conclusions based on being a "TBM," I could counter that yours are only based on being an "apostate." I don't believe either approach is condicive to good conversation, however. If you think I'm speaking from a position that BY and others could do no wrong, you're talking to the wrong guy.


Um, LoaP, if you hadn't noticed, we are now discussing information outside the realm of book one. We are on an even playing field on this particular topic, so forget about the "you haven't read the book" excuse. It won't work on this particular topic.

So you believe that not a single one of the many faithful members - even those who were not involved with the killings, but still knew who was - would have provided this information to BY if he requested it. You claim that your readings on the topic of BY (so far you've mentioned Arrington's book) lead you to this conclusion. I believe that there were at least a few members in that area who would have provided this information to BY had he requested it. Of course this does not mean that everyone would have given it, and that everyone in Utah did what BY told them to do. That is a silly strawman. I claim that my readings on BY's leadership style - as well as simple common sense about how eager most faithful members would be to provide such important information to the man they view as the prophet of God - lead me to the conclusion that some members in the area would have provided the information, if asked.

I really don't think our opinions 'cancel each other out'. I think your opinion is frankly disconnected from reality, and I seriously doubt you read anything in Arrington's book that would justify such an opinion.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

They involve people who have actually read the things they are talking about,


Yeah, like how DCP read the God Delusion before commenting on it, and how Scott Lloyd read Bagley's book before commenting on it.

by the way, have you read The Mormon Conflict, The Lion of the Lord, or Quinn's hierarchy books?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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