Does the teaching method in LDS Primary equal brainwashing?

[_Jersey Girl]

I'm not sure how this is considered "cult-like". They also hold up pictures of Jesus and other things pertaining to the Sharing Time lesson. It's simply a way to get the children involved with what is happening...a very common teaching technique. Obviously, if the lesson is about Joseph Smith or President Hinckley, then yes, these pictures will be utilized. However, most of the lessons in Sharing Time focus on simple principles of the gospel like baptism, acting like Jesus would act, being kind to one another, etc.

It is not cult like. It is called instruction and perhaps indoctrination. It is a choise to teach one's children what one believes. PP will leave that all to random chance for his kids.

We have finally uncovered the reason ol' Jason is afraid to leave the cult.

He is afraid that he could not raise children without religion. Open your mind man.

in my opinion, religion fosters bigotry, hate, and superiority complexes.

I'd like to take this opportunity to ask you, Porter, to read your own posts to TBM's on this board and tell me if you see signs in yourself of

bigotry
hate
superiority complex

Pot-kettle-black baby.

[_DonBradley]

The term "brain washing" was invented to describe Viet Namese methods of mental coercion on POWs--including heavy use of physical torture and deprivation. Since neither LDS nor other US religions (e.g., "the Moonies") use such methods, they don't "brain wash." The term is applied to them only, and precisely, because of its negative connotations--I.e., it is not a description, but a slur.

SS,

I think it's the negative connotations that are the point. Using the term is a value judgement.

Does the "acculturation" involve mostly good teachings? Then no, not brain washing. Does the "acculturation" involve mostly bad teachings? Then yes, brain washing.

When people say the church is brain washing the members, they're saying that what people are being mentally conditioned to think is bad.

So yeah, I think they're being brainwashed.

First, this just isn't what "brain washing" means.

Second, I think your assessment of the weight of relatively "good" and "bad" teachings in Mormonism is probably not very precise. Most of Mormonism's teachings encourage people to live moral, communally-connected, and family-oriented lives.

Third, yours is an argument for entire subjectivity without any attempt at accuracy. By this logic, a church I like is a church while a church I dislike is a cult; a politician I like is a leader, a statesman, while a politician I dislike is a demagogue, a dictator, or a usurper. The trouble with this is that such evaluative terms have actual meanings, and are intended to be used simply as part of a species-wide Rohrschach Inkblot Test. Just as truth is generally better for us than falsehood, so accuracy is generally better than inaccuracy, since inaccuracy is in fact falsehood, while accuracy is truth. And so we've invented a range of terms, with distinctions of meaning, to communicate accurately, and we're generally best off using the most precise term, rather than the one that worst slanders what we dislike.

Fourth, to consistently and casually use a greatly hyperbolic term like this isn't merely a value judgment: It's an insult. One might well refer to negative acculturation as "indoctrination" or by some other non-extreme term. To use a term that evokes Viet Nam POW tortures to refer to singing "Follow the Prophet" doesn't accurately describe anything about the nature of Mormonism or its teaching, but it says much about the person using the term.

Don

[_Some Schmo]

Oh, everybody get a grip.

What you're all describing is religious indoctrination that is conducted in every single church/synagogue/temple on the planet and is not specific to the LDS Church. The term "brainwashing" is an appeal to emotion and disgusts me beyond belief.

Well, here's an instance where your lack of experience growing up in the church may hinder you in knowing the full extent to which Mormons brainwash... er, indoctrinate their kids.

But yeah, all religions do it to one degree or another. Doesn't make it right.

Bummer that it disgusts you. I'm sure you'll get over it, though.

[_Jersey Girl]

I think I want to, at this juncture, throw a wrench into this meeting of the minds. And Liz, if you disagree with anything I say here, please clarify your position and observations.

As we speak, live and breath, the very first generations of children who were raised up in full time institutions and those who were raised as chemically dependent persons (I'm talking drugs without the corresponding CBT) are now entering the work force and educational institutions.

Liz and I, teach them in our classrooms. Some are healthy and whole in every possible way while a great many seem to be lost insofar as having a sound foundation of values from which to draw on in their every day interactions as well as forthright ways of meeting their personal goals. I have not witnessed so many young adults who lacked a sense of their own self, self worth, self image, a sense of direction and a genuine appreciation for human kind as I do right now.

I applaud ANY parent who instills values in their children as part of their early learning, including general religious principles of honesty, self worth, valuing others, altruism, and loving others no matter what religious entity or figure they take their cues from. LDS parents and others who invest their time and efforts in guiding their children toward the instilling of values are to be held in high regard.

If you want to take a poke at LDS or other religious types, you need to be taking your shots at the adults who fail to exercise criticial thinking, not how people are raising their children. Every parent with or without religious ties, transmits values to their children from day one. Whether or not those values are upright or corrupting, depends on the core of the parent who is transmitting them.

Jersey Girl

[_Jersey Girl]

Oh, everybody get a grip.

What you're all describing is religious indoctrination that is conducted in every single church/synagogue/temple on the planet and is not specific to the LDS Church. The term "brainwashing" is an appeal to emotion and disgusts me beyond belief.

Well, here's an instance where your lack of experience growing up in the church may hinder you in knowing the full extent to which Mormons brainwash... er, indoctrinate their kids.

But yeah, all religions do it to one degree or another. Doesn't make it right.

Bummer that it disgusts you. I'm sure you'll get over it, though.

Here's an instance where your lack of knowledge of ME, may hinder you from thinking objectively. New Flash: LDS don't hold the copyright to indoctrinating their children and the only way you'd be able to assess the "extent" to which they do so would mean you've experienced, witnessed or observed religious indoctrination of those from other religious groups. My essential message to you is take your "gee aren't we so special we were heavily indoctrinated and that must mean we're the most indoctrinated group on the planet" and bite me.

[_Some Schmo]

First, this just isn't what "brain washing" means.

Perhaps not to you, but it seems to be fairly widely represented by people who have participated in this thread, at least.

Second, I think your assessment of the weight of relatively "good" and "bad" teachings in Mormonism is probably not very precise. Most of Mormonism's teachings encourage people to live moral, communally-connected, and family-oriented lives.

Most? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

Third, yours is an argument for entire subjectivity without any attempt at accuracy. By this logic, a church I like is a church while a church I dislike is a cult; a politician I like is a leader, a statesman, while a politician I dislike is a demagogue, a dictator, or a usurper. The trouble with this is that such evaluative terms have actual meanings, and are intended to be used simply as part of a species-wide Rohrschach Inkblot Test. Just as truth is generally better for us than falsehood, so accuracy is generally better than inaccuracy, since inaccuracy is in fact falsehood, while accuracy is truth. And so we've invented a range of terms, with distinctions of meaning, to communicate accurately, and we're generally best off using the most precise term, rather than the one that worst slanders what we dislike.

It actually wasn't an argument, it was an observation. This is how people tend to behave. People say what could be considered inaccurate to others but is entirely accurate to them. That's why people misunderstand each other. That's why there are so many arguments that end up being about semantics.

Sure, it's subjective, but that's how people tend to be... subjective. I've yet to meet anyone that's pulled off pure objectivity.

Fourth, to consistently and casually use a greatly hyperbolic term like this isn't merely a value judgment: It's an insult. One might well refer to negative acculturation as "indoctrination" or by some other non-extreme term. To use a term that evokes Viet Nam POW tortures to refer to singing "Follow the Prophet" doesn't accurately describe anything about the nature of Mormonism or its teaching, but it says much about the person using the term.

Don

Agreed.

Does this make it wrong? People feel how they feel, and communicate the way the do to express that. It is what it is.

[_Jersey Girl]

SS

It actually wasn't an argument, it was an observation. This is how people tend to behave. People say what could be considered inaccurate to others but is entirely accurate to them. That's why people misunderstand each other. That's why there are so many arguments that end up being about semantics.

It is a matter of using terminology that fits the situation. Using "brain washing" is an appeal to emotion and nothing more.

[_Some Schmo]

Here's an instance where your lack of knowledge of ME, may hinder you from thinking objectively. New Flash: LDS don't hold the copyright to indoctrinating their children and the only way you'd be able to assess the "extent" to which they do so would mean you've experienced, witnessed or observed religious indoctrination of those from other religious groups. My essential message to you is take your "gee aren't we so special we were heavily indoctrinated and that must mean we're the most indoctrinated group on the planet" and bite me.

Wow... touchy. Is there a reason you're so sensitive about this?

[_Some Schmo]

SS

It actually wasn't an argument, it was an observation. This is how people tend to behave. People say what could be considered inaccurate to others but is entirely accurate to them. That's why people misunderstand each other. That's why there are so many arguments that end up being about semantics.

It is a matter of using terminology that fits the situation. Using "brain washing" is an appeal to emotion and nothing more.

Well, it's clearly nothing more to you. That must mean it's nothing more to the rest of the world too, I suppose.

[_Who Knows]

DonB - you're doing what harmony was doing - sticking to a certain definition. Which is fine. According to both your definitions, you are both correct!

However, some of us have chosen to use a broader definition of the word - one that is widely accepted. We have posted definitions from a variety of sources to support this. So, according to our broader (and more widely accepted these days) definitions, we are correct! :)

If not, please point out where and how we are wrong.