cksalmon wrote:I just received the following informative reply from Dr. Tvedtnes:
In response to your question:
One horse specimen, discovered near Saint Petersburg, Florida, was radiocarbon-dated to the first century BC (I.e., 2040 BP [before the present] +/- 90 years [= 123BC to 53AD--CKS]), providing evidence that not all American horses postdate the arrival of the Spaniards. James J. Hester, who reported the find, dismissed the radiocarbon date on the grounds that the horse was unknown in recent times until the arrival of the Spanish. It is typical to ignore the radiocarbon dates if they do not fit with the theory that there were no horses prior to the arrival of the Spaniards. See James J. Hester, “Late Pleistocene Extinction and Radiocarbon Dating,” American Antiquity 26/1 (July 1960), 65, 70.
Meanwhile, other precolumbian horse remains have been subjected to radiocarbon dating and other methods. Horse bones from a Wyoming cave were subjected to thermoluminescence testing some years back and dated thereby to about 1000 BC. Plans are under way to narrow down the date using AMS (accelerator mass spectrometer) method of radiocarbon dating. A specimen from Colorado was radiocarbon dated to AD 1260-1400, thus after Book of Mormon times but prior to the arrival of Columbus.
Bones found in a cenote on Cozumel Island, Mexico, by archaeologist Joaquin Arroyo-Cabrales have been radiocarbon dated to AD 1230-1300. The bones were identified as either equine (horse) or bovid (cattle), a question that could not be settled by DNA sequencing because there was insufficient collagen in them. The question will be settled after the bones undergo a protein radio-immuno assay. In either case, it would bode well for the Book of Mormon, which mentions horses, asses, cows, and oxen.
Horse bones have also been found in conjunction with precolumbian Mayan pottery at the Mexican sites of Mayapan and Loltun, but have not yet been submitted to radiocarbon testing.
All of this will be discussed in detail, along with other issues concerning Book of Mormon animals, in a forthcoming book.
John Tvedtnes
Below is the abstract of the Hester article:
All radiocarbon dates from North America, associated with extinct Late Pleistocene mammals, those from levels stratigraphically later than levels with extinct forms, and dates associated with recent fauna are tabulated alphabetically by site. Dates associated with extinct fauna are cross-referenced in an alphabetical listing of species. Dates considered invalid are tabulated and are not utilized in formulating conclusions. Most herding animals, such as the Columbian mammoth, horse, camel, and bison, as well as the dire wolf, rapidly became extinct about 8000 years ago. The dates suggest a southward withdrawal from the Great Plains by the mammoth and a partial contemporaneity of Clovis elephant hunters in southern Arizona with Folsom bison hunters on the Plains. Dates for the extinction of the Imperial mammoth are probably too early. The mastodon may have survived in isolated areas after the extinction of other forms. The super bison may have become extinct earlier than 8000 years ago and Bison bison seems to have been present in some areas before the extinction of B. antiquus. Radiocarbon dates do not support the supposed late survival of the ground sloth. Extinction apparently occurred earlier in the Great Basin and Coahuila than in intervening areas.
Google the article title, follow the first JSTOR link, and you'll be able to read the first page of the article. I'd post a link, but I'm just not that swift. (Wasn't there an instructional post about posting links some time ago...?)
Best.
CKS
Oh jeeeeez!
Unfortunately the Hestor thing is well know to be pure trash (and look at the date!! dating methods were crude.).
Not one paleontologist I spoke to considered that to be anything to contradict the consensus.There was no authentication (without which we have nothing really).
Also, notice we have yet more unsubstantiated claims--- now Wyoming too?
Where is the reference to publications in scientific journals?
Where is there an authentication? Are these just amateurs digging things up and then botching up the science? That kind of fringe pseudo-archeology and pseudo-paleontology has been around forever. But, just ask a hand full of top experts about authenticated evidence for horses existing after the Pleistocene and before Columbus.
The consensus is as it has been for years.
...
It is typical to ignore the radiocarbon dates if they do not fit with the theory that there were no horses prior to the arrival of the Spaniards. See James J. Hester, “Late Pleistocene Extinction and Radiocarbon Dating,” American Antiquity 26/1 (July 1960), 65, 70.
Yes, and there is a reason for this. Time and time again when these anomalous datings appear further more careful tests show them to be in line with the consensus after all. That’s how science works. If I measure the mass of a proton and it comes out 10 times too much then I check again!!
If I get on the scale and it tells me that I weigh 40 pounds I don’t walk away thinking I weigh 40 lbs. I redo it with better equipment!
Crackpots latch onto these things to support their pet theories ignoring the follow ups and the big picture.
