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_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

charity wrote:It was not you that someone said of him "his head was handed to him in a basket." I told you it was a public debate. From what I have heard of your encounter with Metcalfe it happened on a message baord.


This is irritating, charity. You insinuate that one former apologist here had his head handed to him in a basket. If you can't say who it was, don't bring it up. There aren't that many of us. It wasn't me, and it wasn't Kevin. So who was it?

And I won't put that person's name out here to be trashed. I saw what happened when one of your own friends put up the post about you being homosexual and having an affair with Rittner. Of course, the poster was trying to discredit what I was saying, by going way over the top. But you have to live with it, now that he said it, even in jest, that even though it isn't true, there will always be someone who says, "Didn't I read something about Kevin Graham's sexual orientation?"


Let me get this straight: Chris's tongue-in-cheek parody of your "I know something you don't know" post is somehow character assassination and a suggestion that Kevin is gay? Good heavens.

I won't put anyone's name into a place where this kind of character assasination happens.


Heh. You'd better stop posting on MADB, then. ;)
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

charity wrote:It was not you that someone said of him "his head was handed to him in a basket." I told you it was a public debate. From what I have heard of your encounter with Metcalfe it happened on a message baord.

And I won't put that person's name out here to be trashed. I saw what happened when one of your own friends put up the post about you being homosexual and having an affair with Rittner. Of course, the poster was trying to discredit what I was saying, by going way over the top. But you have to live with it, now that he said it, even in jest, that even though it isn't true, there will always be someone who says, "Didn't I read something about Kevin Graham's sexual orientation?"

I won't put anyone's name into a place where this kind of character assasination happens.


Yawn. Is this what you came here to say? Why even bother?
_CaliforniaKid
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Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Runtu wrote:
And I won't put that person's name out here to be trashed. I saw what happened when one of your own friends put up the post about you being homosexual and having an affair with Rittner. Of course, the poster was trying to discredit what I was saying, by going way over the top. But you have to live with it, now that he said it, even in jest, that even though it isn't true, there will always be someone who says, "Didn't I read something about Kevin Graham's sexual orientation?"


Let me get this straight: Chris's tongue-in-cheek parody of your "I know something you don't know" post is somehow character assassination and a suggestion that Kevin is gay? Good heavens.


Usually when I type "lol", I am not literally laughing out loud. This is an exception.
_Sethbag
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Post by _Sethbag »

charity wrote:Seems I have been moved up a little in the apologetics ranks and am getting more involved with real apologetics. I consider message boards sort of practice games.


"Real" apologetics? Apologetics is by definition hard-headed, no-holds-barred, never-give-an-inch defense of a chosen cause, irrespective of its ultimate truth value. You are a true partisan for Joseph Smith.

Too bad you see this all as a big game. The church teaches false things to people as truth, and inculcates in people a vision of reality that is at best a wishful thinking-laden virtual reality, and you have picked your side and now think of yourself as a noble Defender of the Faith. Too bad you're actually a Defender of the Fraud. You might, in your heart of hearts, not really comprehend the fraudulent nature of the church, but that doesn't change the reality of it. And now you've moved up in the ranks, eh? Well, congratulations - you're now a slightly bigger fish in really a very small pond, a veritable backwater in this wide world we live in.

And this means no disrespect. But what I see on message boards is two sides. No one changes jerseys at half time and joins the other team.

Sure they do, if they realize they're on the wrong team.

What's really ironic about all of this is that by far most of the critics on this board, and on MAD, were once members and believers in this stuff too. What changed is not that they were disloyal, or turncoats, or traitors. What changed is that they realized they were arguing in defense of a false system of beliefs, and once they truly recognized this, their own personal integrity forced them to own up to it, and admit the awful truth. It hasn't even two full years yet since the last time I actually defended Joseph Smith against some of the accusations about him that a brother-in-law of mine had read on the Internet. I defended the church, I excused the Church's errors, I acknowledged that a lot of problematic doctrines (like the Flood) were indefensible scientifically, and simply dead wrong, but that the church was still "true" and that the problems were all about things that didn't affect our eternal salvation.

But then I finally, truly owned up to the possibility that Joseph Smith was fundementally wrong about a lot of things, and almost certainly was making it up as he went along, on the basis of evidence I could not force myself to deny. The Book of Abraham and Joseph Smith's shameful manipulation of women and deceit around polygamy, with his wife, and the church, and the public, were the last two things that really tipped the scales for me. I read the most meaty details about these two topics at the same time, over a period of a few days, and they were the two things which together finally demonstrated to me what it was that I was helping defend.

Now that I accepted that, so many other things fell into place. Charity, you've committed yourself to the belief in, and defense of, a fraud. You may not be yourself a fraud, or a deceiver, because you appear to actually believe it. There's the actus reus but not the mens rea, so you are not a lier or a deceiver.

What you are is a pawn.
Last edited by Anonymous on Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Some Schmo wrote:by the way, I wouldn't mind seeing more Mormons post here too, but it's not that big a deal, if you think about it. The real TBMs would never come here because their faith would never allow it, and the ones who do post are only marginal Mormons at best (nothing wrong with that, I guess... better that they aren't taking it too seriously).


I'm marginal? Ouch.

Guess I need to start bearing testimony in every thread until that complaint is snuffed out.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

The Nehor wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:by the way, I wouldn't mind seeing more Mormons post here too, but it's not that big a deal, if you think about it. The real TBMs would never come here because their faith would never allow it, and the ones who do post are only marginal Mormons at best (nothing wrong with that, I guess... better that they aren't taking it too seriously).


I'm marginal? Ouch.

Guess I need to start bearing testimony in every thread until that complaint is snuffed out.


You're not marginal. Kinda loopy maybe, but not marginal. ;)
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Runtu wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:by the way, I wouldn't mind seeing more Mormons post here too, but it's not that big a deal, if you think about it. The real TBMs would never come here because their faith would never allow it, and the ones who do post are only marginal Mormons at best (nothing wrong with that, I guess... better that they aren't taking it too seriously).


I'm marginal? Ouch.

Guess I need to start bearing testimony in every thread until that complaint is snuffed out.


You're not marginal. Kinda loopy maybe, but not marginal. ;)


Anyone who claims they are completely sane is either lying or not very bright.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

The Nehor wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:by the way, I wouldn't mind seeing more Mormons post here too, but it's not that big a deal, if you think about it. The real TBMs would never come here because their faith would never allow it, and the ones who do post are only marginal Mormons at best (nothing wrong with that, I guess... better that they aren't taking it too seriously).


I'm marginal? Ouch.

Guess I need to start bearing testimony in every thread until that complaint is snuffed out.


Marginal only because you come to place that you're not supposed to be coming to. A "good" Mormon would never come here. Obedience, remember?

It was actually a backhanded compliment to the Mormons that come here, whether they see it that way or not.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

The Nehor wrote:Anyone who claims they are completely sane is either lying or not very bright.


I think I found a signature. Thanks, Nehor!
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

The Nehor wrote:
You're not marginal. Kinda loopy maybe, but not marginal. ;)


Anyone who claims they are completely sane is either lying or not very bright.[/quote]

I never claimed I'm even close to sane. I've been in a psychiatric intensive care unit. You haven't. So there. :-P~
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
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