Life Meaning -- Atheists? Theists?

[_Moniker]

I can tell you from firsthand experience that an atheist can find meaning in family life, companionship, personal growth, and helping others just as readily as a theist can. The only necessary difference is that an atheist doesn't see one overarching meaning to life provided by God.

Questions of "ultimate" meaning tend to be more complex for an atheist than for a theist (unless the "atheist" believes in some other transcendent framework that takes the place of God--e.g., as in Buddhism). Ultimate meaning would appear to hinge crucially on the future. If there ever comes a time that our actions no longer have a continuing effect on conscious beings (e.g., if humankind dies out), then it would seem that all meaning would cease--there would be no ultimate meaning.

Don

That's interesting that you mention the "ultimate meaning" as I've seen theists talk about the end of humanity and question how within that framework an atheist can still derive meaning in life. I still believe that even without the eternal aspect there is still meaning in the now. In the blink of our lives it matters not really what happens after (although much of my meaning is connected to humanity and progress) as long as there is meaning sought in the current. I've often thought (I shouldn't think such thoughts!!) that if I were faced with the end of humanity (something catastrophic) that was imminent that I would find joy and comfort being with the ones I loved in those moments -- even if it were all to end that it was still all worthwhile. All rides come to an end -- but wasn't it a joyous journey!

[_Bond...James Bond]

God takes the responsibility of finding meaning from theists.

BUT HOW? Why aren't any theists jumping in here?

This is so confusing to me. What precisely is the meaning of life for theists that is given to them by God?

Need to reply (sorry forgot bout this post). Well as you know life isn't always the best. For most people life is alot of work with a little pleasure sprinkled in (particularly historically, when people worked hard to survive, today it's much easier). Anyways, the promise of the metaphysical heaven/paradise in return for a little faith on this end seems like a good trade off right? Anyways, the belief that Heaven exists and is a reward is useful in getting people through the rigors and trials of life. It's like a warm blanket that people always wear, and the warmth is so satisfying that some people will stop looking for meaning and will rest on their laurels (err...beliefs).

Atheists have to work a bit harder, but through their work can perhaps have more personal growth than people who are raised in a belief system and never leave that comfort zone.

Why do you say they have to work harder? I've never been a theist and it's never been difficult for me to determine what purpose I have in life. Or what, for me personally, the meaning of life is. Joy, humor, art, literature, love, friendship, family, music, social justice, nature, etc... All these things bring me fulfillment and I have found that my purpose is to seek these things. It's not that hard, really.

I should restate to say I (who went from theist to weak atheist) had to work hard to find meaning. I was brought up in the paradigm that heaven was the reward for faith. When I lost faith I had to do quite a bit of searching looking for meaning to fill the void. It's quite difficult to fill a hole infinitely large (I mean everlasting paradise is everlasting parade!)

Alright my hands are killing me...reply if I need to clarify something.

[Guest]

To me there is no question that life is meaningful. In one sense, anything done for human beings is of "ultimate" meaning, because human beings are "ultimate"--they are ends in themselves.

Another question though, and this is what I was referring to earlier as the question of ultimate meaning, is whether meanings will continue indefinitely in the future. For our lives to have been meaningful is different from them having continuing meaning now. If the entire Cosmos completely and eternally ceased to exist, and along with it every being, our lives will not have continuing meaning--they will not continue to contribute to meanings created or experienced in the (future) now.

Don

[_BishopRic]

Yes, enjoyment is the purpose, is it not? I find which things cause pain and avoid them and seek the pleasurable. Seems fairly easy to me. :)

I think it's also why some with serious depression challenges (those with a lack of sufficient serotonin and endorphins) choose to end their lives...the pain of living outweighs the pleasure. Sad, but it seems to come down to the simple mixture of chemicals running through our veins.

[_Moniker]

Yes, enjoyment is the purpose, is it not? I find which things cause pain and avoid them and seek the pleasurable. Seems fairly easy to me. :)

I think it's also why some with serious depression challenges (those with a lack of sufficient serotonin and endorphins) choose to end their lives...the pain of living outweighs the pleasure. Sad, but it seems to come down to the simple mixture of chemicals running through our veins.

I want to reply to Don and Bond but just saw this and want to reply to Ric first.

That is so unfortunate that for some life is so excruciatingly painful that suicide is the way to find release. I know many that have struggled with depression and have encountered it briefly in my life as well. When I speak of finding happiness and meaning in life I do not intend to be flippant to those that encounter difficulty in this. As a matter of fact I become quite incensed when some say people can just choose to be happy as this is rather ignorant to the many issues people encounter when they suffer from depression or grief.

My comments were not in anyway to suggest that I think it is easy for all to find happiness -- as I've even struggled with this at times in my life. More so my comments were merely restrained to my own quest for fulfillment.

[_Moniker]

To me there is no question that life is meaningful. In one sense, anything done for human beings is of "ultimate" meaning, because human beings are "ultimate"--they are ends in themselves.

Another question though, and this is what I was referring to earlier as the question of ultimate meaning, is whether meanings will continue indefinitely in the future. For our lives to have been meaningful is different from them having continuing meaning now. If the entire Cosmos completely and eternally ceased to exist, and along with it every being, our lives will not have continuing meaning--they will not continue to contribute to meanings created or experienced in the (future) now.

Don

I agree with the difference between meaning in the present and meaningful. This, no doubt, is what theists most likely are intending to suggest when they say there is no meaning to life if there is nothing after.

[_Moniker]

Need to reply (sorry forgot bout this post). Well as you know life isn't always the best. For most people life is alot of work with a little pleasure sprinkled in (particularly historically, when people worked hard to survive, today it's much easier). Anyways, the promise of the metaphysical heaven/paradise in return for a little faith on this end seems like a good trade off right? Anyways, the belief that Heaven exists and is a reward is useful in getting people through the rigors and trials of life. It's like a warm blanket that people always wear, and the warmth is so satisfying that some people will stop looking for meaning and will rest on their laurels (err...beliefs).

That certainly is a way to look at it that I hadn't considered. Yet, it's not often phrased that way by theists -- that I've seen? Often what I've come across is the belief that atheists or apostates are miserable and that theists are not.

I should restate to say I (who went from theist to weak atheist) had to work hard to find meaning. I was brought up in the paradigm that heaven was the reward for faith. When I lost faith I had to do quite a bit of searching looking for meaning to fill the void. It's quite difficult to fill a hole infinitely large (I mean everlasting paradise is everlasting parade!)

Alright my hands are killing me...reply if I need to clarify something.

Bond, when you were a believer did you often think of the afterlife? As someone that never really made that transition (I was a theist as a young child, I suppose -- yet it was absent religion and was only through spirituality that I felt that there was a God) I can't really relate.

As so many on this board did go through this transition I wonder if they too had difficulty finding a new meaning to their life.

Sorry about your hands! No need to reply if it's painful! :)

[_beastie]

When I lost faith in any sort of godbeing or afterlife, what bothered me about the loss of "meaning" to life didn't have to do with not finding meaning in my OWN life. My life, like you all state here, is rife with meaning as it is.

But it did bother me that, for example, a child could be born in a war-ravaged, famine infested country and simply live a short life filled with pain, and that was IT. I did mourn the idea that those lives seemed to have no meaning other than to suffer pain. It's emotionally uncomfortable, but that doesn't change reality. It's a nice fantasy to imagine that those children go on to some eternal bliss and comfort.

[_Moniker]

When I lost faith in any sort of godbeing or afterlife, what bothered me about the loss of "meaning" to life didn't have to do with not finding meaning in my OWN life. My life, like you all state here, is rife with meaning as it is.

But it did bother me that, for example, a child could be born in a war-ravaged, famine infested country and simply live a short life filled with pain, and that was IT. I did mourn the idea that those lives seemed to have no meaning other than to suffer pain. It's emotionally uncomfortable, but that doesn't change reality. It's a nice fantasy to imagine that those children go on to some eternal bliss and comfort.

Beastie, I've never lost my religion, but like you I mourn that there are short lives filled with misery and poverty! I would love to believe that there is a meaning to their lives and they are welcomed into a comfy cloud nursery in the sky. The unfortunate reality is that I do not believe this -- yet knowing that there is only NOW to give any sort of comfort, relief and meaning to lives creates a sense of urgency in me to alleviate suffering when I do witness it.

[_BishopRic]

Bond, when you were a believer did you often think of the afterlife? As someone that never really made that transition (I was a theist as a young child, I suppose -- yet it was absent religion and was only through spirituality that I felt that there was a God) I can't really relate.

As so many on this board did go through this transition I wonder if they too had difficulty finding a new meaning to their life.

I'll jump in for a minute...because this is something I've gone through. Yes, at first there was the thought "how can I go on in life not "knowing" about God and an afterlife?" I even thought "how can I go through each day without faith in God, etc...without it, I might just do wicked and evil things all day....!"

I believed that way BECAUSE that how I'd been taught to believe, and when I look back on it, I laugh at the concept that one must have belief in an afterlife to be a good person. Can you imagine the idea of looking forward to going to Disneyland...the great anticipation of the excitement and fun of the whole day of rides, etc....the hope and purpose it gives to just make it to the day....

Then when it's over, having nothing more to anticipate or believe in, one must sink into deep despair, void of hope and purpose...without this hope, you must change all your behaviors and start hurting people....?

DOH!

It's the programming...the paradigm that a person must believe in the afterlife to do things good. Even the paradigm of "obeying" commandments and rules to gain a reward...and the sacrifices we must make -- to eventually achieve the peace and happiness that God has waiting for us. I've observed many (my own mother is my most poignant example) that have a constant grimace on their face projecting all the pain and suffereing they have today, but must "do" all this temple work, more sessions, in spite of the sickness, etc.,...but God will reward them in the afterlife....

A turning point for me was Eckhart' Tolle's book "The Power of Now." It highlights the benefits of living in the moment and the attitude shift one can make to be happy and peaceful every day. I think religion had taught me to live in the past and the future...almost forgetting about recognizing the beauties of today. Feeling guilty and remorse for wrongdoings of the past, and an urgency to keep performing better to earn my place in heaven after I die...all shifted my focus to an unhealthy (and unnecessary) place each day. Also, it was almost considered "selfish and prideful" to be happy in the moment...or to purposely do things that made me "feel good." More guilt....

Yup...much happier today -- without religion!