1 Nephi and the First Vision -- Some interesting parallels

[_Ray A]

Compare Alma's baptismal account with Oliver Cowdery's retelling of his baptism, for instance.

I'm not sure which verses you're referring to. Is it these in Mosiah?:

12 And now it came to pass that Alma took Helam, he being one of the first, and went and stood forth in the water, and cried, saying: O Lord, pour out thy Spirit upon thy servant, that he may do this work with holiness of heart.
13 And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said: Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body; and may the Spirit of the Lord be poured out upon you; and may he grant unto you eternal life, through the redemption of Christ, whom he has prepared from the foundation of the world.
14 And after Alma had said these words, both Alma and Helam were buried in the water; and they arose and came forth out of the water rejoicing, being filled with the Spirit.

[_Abinadi's Fire]

Yes, the first draft should take three months. I doubt that Stephen King dictated his novels to an amanuesis.

If he was recounting and embellishing events from his own life, there wouldn't even be a need for a draft.

Abinadi, respectfully, I would suggest that your knowledge of "novel writing" (it appears you believe the Book of Mormon is only a novel) is sadly lacking. I have written 5. You can't just dictate out of your memory without a draft.

Have you studied the Book of Mormon? If you have you will notice the complexity of the "plot." It isn't a boy meets girl, boys loses girl, boy gets girl back kind of story.

I don't think the whole thing was written from memory, but parts of it, the parts that are about Joseph's life. There are "epistles" in the book, as well, which I think he dictated from "behind the curtain."

I do think it is a complex book, for what it's worth, especially when you take into account the abridgements and redactions. It's been interesting to try and determine where those redactions occurred.

[_wenglund]

Compare Alma's baptismal account with Oliver Cowdery's retelling of his baptism, for instance.

I see what you mean. One can find ample parallels between King Noah and Martin Harris' wife. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest]

I'm not sure which verses you're referring to. Is it these in Mosiah?:

I was thinking of this:

An 1834 account written by Oliver Cowdery and published in the Messenger and Advocate, hints at a connection between what is written and what those men were doing.

Cowdery relates the real-world event as occurring “after [the] writing [of] the account given of the Savior's ministry to the remnant of the seed of Jacob, upon this continent." But I think the inspiration for what is written in the book is based on the external event, and not the other way around.

For Cowdery’s full account, see

www.saintswithouthalos.com/p/hist_c_oc_phtml#1

Note the following common elements between Jesus’ arrival in the Americas in 3 Nephi 11 and the reported latter-day coming of John the Baptist:

A divine voice is heard from heaven.

3 Nephi 11:3-6 “they heard a voice as if it came out of heaven…. And behold, the third time they did understand the voice which they heard; and it said unto them: Behold my Beloved Son,”

Oliver Cowdery, 1834

“On a sudden, as from the midst of eternity, the voice of the Redeemer spake peace to us,…”

Note: another comparison could be made to the various “First Vision” accounts, in which an “evolution” of this vision can be seen, as Joseph Smith Jr’s theology changed

A glorious being descends.

3 Nephi 11:8 “they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them”

Cowdery, 1834

“the angel of God came down clothed with glory”

Note: compare to the description of Moroni in JS-H 1:31

A soft voice pierces its hearers "to the center."

The elements in this parallel element differ in order and origin, but are similar in content:

3 Nephi 11:3 God’s voice “was not a harsh voice, neither was it a loud voice; nevertheless, and notwithstanding it being a small voice it did pierce them that did hear to the center”

Cowdery, 1834
The angel’s “voice, though mild, pierced to the center”)

The being declares himself, dispelling all doubt over whether he is angelic or divine.

3 Nephi 11:8-10 “they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him, and they durst not open their mouths, even one to another, and wist not what it meant, for they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them.

Cowdery, 1834

“…his words, ‘I am thy fellow servant,’ dispelled every fear.”

Note: in D&C 13, this personage was described as an angel, who came as a man, John the Baptist – here the figure is described as Jesus, and in D&C 27, we see that the words were attributed to Jesus again – the term “fellow servant” was used by the Rigdonites in reference to “angels/messengers”

The visitor turns out to be a New Testament figure who died and has been resurrected, though in Cowdery’s account this figure becomes “John” and not Jesus, as we see in the Book of Mormon.

3 Nephi 11:9-14 "spake unto the people, saying: Behold, I am Jesus Christ,.... I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world."

Oliver Cowdery, 1835

“[Joseph Smith] was ordained by the angel John, unto the lesser or Aaronic priesthood, in company with myself”;

JS-H 1:72

“The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this [Aaronic] Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament,”

The visitor bestows authority to baptize.

Quote:
3 Nephi 11:21-22 "And the Lord said unto [Nephi]: I give unto you power that ye shall baptize this people when I am again ascended into heaven. And again the Lord called others, and said unto them likewise; and he gave unto them power to baptize."

Cowdery, 1834

“…the angel of God came down clothed with glory, and delivered…the keys of the gospel of repentance!’” and “we received under his hand the holy priesthood, as he said, ‘upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer this priesthood and this authority…’

JS-H 1:68-69
“a messenger from heaven descended in a cloud of light, and having laid his hands upon us, he ordained us, saying: Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins;…”

And authorized baptisms are performed after the heavenly being’s ascension.

3 Nephi 11:21 "And the Lord said unto him: I give unto you power that ye shall baptize this people when I am again ascended into heaven."

See also 3 Nephi 19:1, 11-12 "And now it came to pass that when Jesus had ascended into heaven…Nephi went down into the water and was baptized. And he came up out of the water and began to baptize. And he baptized all those whom Jesus had chosen."

JS-H 1: 70-71
“[John the Baptist] commanded us to go and be baptized, and gave us directions that I should baptize Oliver Cowdery, and that afterwards he should baptize me. Accordingly we went and were baptized. I baptized him first, and afterwards he baptized me…”

As an aside, this is simply an odd method of baptism for John the Baptist to employ - did Joseph baptize himself before baptizing Cowdery, as Nephi did, and then have Cowdery baptize him?

The Nephite visit of Jesus and the reported 1829 visit of John the Baptist reveal a shared structure and content, which would be natural if the Nephite visit were dictated shortly after the John the Baptist (Sidney Rigdon) baptismal experience.

Toward the end of Jesus’ Nephite ministry, we’re told that the John the Baptist experience would occur again - a “prophecy after the fact,” it would appear.

In 3 Nephi 24-25, Jesus recites to the Nephites the prophecies of Malachi. He begins at “Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me,” a passage explicitly applied by the Gospels and traditional Christianity to John the Baptist. He concludes his citation with Malachi’s prophecy of the return of Elijah, another passage associated with John the Baptist in the Gospels and the traditional biblical readings that would have been familiar to Smith and Cowdery.

(Don Bradley posted this about three years ago at what was then the FAIR board)

[_Abinadi's Fire]

Compare Alma's baptismal account with Oliver Cowdery's retelling of his baptism, for instance.

I see what you mean. One can find ample parallels between King Noah and Martin Harris' wife. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Heh - or John the Baptist and Sidney Rigdon, for that matter.

Preposterous.

[_Ray A]

I'm not sure which verses you're referring to. Is it these in Mosiah?:

I was thinking of this:

I thought you said the baptism of Alma (and Helam), which was not done in the same way Joseph's and Oliver's baptisms were done.

But even in the comparisons you give, if heavenly messengers appeared, or spoke to people, would not the descriptions be similar?

3 Nephi 11:3-6 “they heard a voice as if it came out of heaven…. And behold, the third time they did understand the voice which they heard; and it said unto them: Behold my Beloved Son,”

Oliver Cowdery, 1834

“On a sudden, as from the midst of eternity, the voice of the Redeemer spake peace to us,…”

Even the wording here is not similar. But if the voice of God speaks to the Nephites, would it not be similar in speaking to Joseph and Oliver?

If the voice of God "pierces" one person/people, would it not have the same effect on another people?

A glorious being descends.

3 Nephi 11:8 “they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them”

Cowdery, 1834

“the angel of God came down clothed with glory”

"Clothed with glory"..."clothed in a white robe". But even then, how else would angels/God appear to men?

JS-H 1:68-69
“a messenger from heaven descended in a cloud of light, and having laid his hands upon us, he ordained us, saying: Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins;…”

And authorized baptisms are performed after the heavenly being’s ascension.

3 Nephi 11:21 "And the Lord said unto him: I give unto you power that ye shall baptize this people when I am again ascended into heaven."

See also 3 Nephi 19:1, 11-12 "And now it came to pass that when Jesus had ascended into heaven…Nephi went down into the water and was baptized. And he came up out of the water and began to baptize. And he baptized all those whom Jesus had chosen."

JS-H 1: 70-71
“[John the Baptist] commanded us to go and be baptized, and gave us directions that I should baptize Oliver Cowdery, and that afterwards he should baptize me. Accordingly we went and were baptized. I baptized him first, and afterwards he baptized me…”

Messenger comes down from heaven, bestows authority, tells them to baptise others, ascends back into heaven. One occurs around 33 AD, the other in 1829. Would God/angels make different appearances on earth, in different ways, just to add a bit of variety to break the monotony?

Of course you can assume copycat similarities, but that's if you've already made up your mind it's nothing but fabrication.

[_CaliforniaKid]

Yes, the first draft should take three months. I doubt that Stephen King dictated his novels to an amanuesis.

If he was recounting and embellishing events from his own life, there wouldn't even be a need for a draft.

Abinadi, respectfully, I would suggest that your knowledge of "novel writing" (it appears you believe the Book of Mormon is only a novel) is sadly lacking. I have written 5. You can't just dictate out of your memory without a draft.

Have you studied the Book of Mormon? If you have you will notice the complexity of the "plot." It isn't a boy meets girl, boys loses girl, boy gets girl back kind of story.

Actually, much of the Book of Mormon plot follows a few fairly trite formulas and/or draws from Bible plotlines. It may not be a "boy meets girl" story, but it is a "people of God goes to America" story (that happens three times). I also recommend listening to Don Bradley's recent Sunstone presentation for some good insight into the formulaic nature of Book of Mormon conversion experiences. True, there is complexity in the Book of Mormon plot. But that's not impossible to accomplish without a draft, and I don't think there's anything in the story that absolutely demands a draft, so long as the author is sufficiently cognitively-endowed.

[_Abinadi's Fire]

Of course you can assume copycat similarities, but that's if you've already made up your mind it's nothing but fabrication.

Well Ray, I think the evidence leads to those men "likening themselves unto the scriptures." The whole thing is very fascinating to me.

And yes, I did say Alma and Oliver Cowdery - I think the account above is an expansion of what happened with Alma and Helam.

[_Ray A]

.... so long as the author is sufficiently cognitively-endowed.

Euphemism for "inspired"?

[Guest]

(Don Bradley posted this about three years ago at what was then the FAIR board)

Thank you for the attribution, AF. I see, though, that the post includes some interpretations of your own. I don't place Sidney Rigdon in the event, or argue that the Book of Mormon was dependent on Joseph Smith's life. (I believe it was; but I wasn't arguing that point.)

Don