Beastie wrote:It also seemed to me that many LDS were distrustful of the professional psychiatric/psychological community in general. Perhaps that has changed, or was distinctive to my own region, I don't know. But it was present. It took me years of suffering in a miserable marriage before I got desperate enough to go to a "real" therapist.
Things have improved slightly. I think that baby steps have been made. As society at large has started to become a little more accepting of clinical depression as a real ailment, and more people are actually seeking out professional treatment, the Mormon community is also morphing its view.
There is still that stigma of weakness. I think it is because there is a fear of the unknown. A sickness of the mind is not something you can physically "see", and it's much more difficult for people to deal with, in general.
I have a question for Bob, Jason, Dr, Peterson, and any others here who have served either as a Bishop, or in the Bishopric. How do you go about counseling someone who comes to you with a clearly clinical depression? Do you encourage them to go for professional help, and incorporate your spiritual counseling along with their professional counseling? (I'm hoping the answer to this is yes).
I'm not asking for anyone to divulge confidences. But if you could answer in general terms, that would be great. Also, what types of programs and steps do you think the Church could take to improve this type of needed awareness?
truth dancer wrote:The teaching that depression is caused by sin, (or even Satan as I have heard many times), was rampant in the LDS church, official doctrine or not. (sigh)
I have often stated that there are some nice teachings in the LDS church but also some very damaging ones... the idea that depression is a sin and through repentance and prayer God will take it away is one of the most damaging of all.
How would it be if someone got cancer, and rather than seeing their doctor they went to their Bishop who told them to repent and pray and all will be well? It is ridiculous to even contemplate yet for some reason within the church there are those who think depression is a result of sin, that a Bishop is the person to go to for help, and repentance is the way to heal.
Depression is a medical illness requiring professional help, not repentance, snake oil, midnight rituals, or an animal sacrifice over the alter.
I have spoken with dozens of LDS women (a few men) over the years who have taken this "depression is the result of sin" teaching to heart, only to suffer in silence, trying to figure out what they are doing wrong, praying with all their heart, only to slide deeper into depression, feeling more and more unworthy. To all those who still believe this nonsense, guess what... prayer and repentance didn't work.
Now, as Liz pointed out I have seen a few small, little baby steps to change this mindset. I know of a couple of stakes that are addressing the issue, a few Bishops who do not counsel those with depression but suggest they receive professional help, and some members who disagree with this teaching when they hear it. So, yes I do think the teaching will diminish over time, but the leaders of the church could certainly squelch this nonsense with one talk in general conference.
Not to derail the thread but it is completely inappropriate for Bishops and other church leaders to play therapist. I don't care if the issue is abuse, marriage difficulties, or depression, they often do much more harm than good.
~dancer~
let me guess. You live in Utah.
It has been my experience instead that a person suffering from depression thinks he or she has very few options, and finds that a pastor is a place to start. Or it could be a bartender. Or a cop after a suicide attempt. I represent several religious entities and by no means do Mormon bishops have a lock on advising people about depression or do Mormons have a lock on depression due to religious onslaught. I also deal with psychiatrists frequently in my profession.
Depression transcends all cultures, all philosophies, all religions. A depressed non-believing college student will blame the pressures of the university and dating. A depressed high school student (and I have dealt with them in the non-religious context) will blame the rejection of peers or an inability with the opposite sex. A depressed mom will blame a sense of failure for not working, or for not being a good mom or whatever.
There have been thousands of articles and publications on the causes and cures.
To suggest that Mormonism, and a bishop is to blame for depression is to really show outright ignorance of the causes and sources of the disease. Good luck in your quest for truth.
She did not say that Mormonism and the bishop are to blame for depression. I do not see how you read that into what TD posted. She said that church leaders as a whole are unable to take on the task of being a therapist. I would say even mainstream Christian clergy face the same challenges when dealing with clinical depression if their theology is not based upon forgiveness.
I'm reading How Good Do We Have To Be? by Harold Kushner, and he speaks at length about the prevalence of guilt in religion. I do not see how a clinically depressed person could really move that far in pastoral counseling, if said pastor didn't start from the beginning by telling the sufferer that they were not a bad person....what they're going through isn't their fault...and that it's ok to forgive themselves first.
I've battled depression for 3/4 of my life. I never felt comfortable talking to a "man/woman" of God about what I was feeling, because I kept getting those messages of inadequacy from my leaders. It was the clinicians who helped me, and who still do.
I once commented on another board about the "flourescent" smiles I often saw on the face of my LDS peers. They just didn't seem like they reached the eyes, and it spooked me out. I came across a lot of women in my old singles ward who crumbled under the need to appear perfect. The girls who were heavyset, the girls who couldn't afford the fancy clothes, the women of color like me, the one girl whose parents were divorced, who wasn't afraid to talk about it...the pain on their faces when they thought no one was looking was intense.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
liz3564 wrote:Things have improved slightly. I think that baby steps have been made. [...]
I personally have received counseling through LDS Social Services. It wasn’t the “best” psychologist I had seen, but he was far better than many who tried to patch my noggin’. Part of the shortcomings were due to personality differences (in my opinion, you need a counselor that “gets you” – the degree and professional training is only a portion of the overall craft), but overall he helped me get through one of my more difficult “breaks” from reality.
I don’t really remember how my bishop got involved, but it was around the same time after G-d had broken my dad’s heart (see below**). My bishop suggested counseling. After I stated that I didn’t currently have insurance, he suggested LDS Social Services. My ward picked up the tab (which I assume would have been in low 1,000s if I had gone through another route).
I think all-in-all, the LDS Church has a rather progressive view regarding mental health. I have spoken at firesides before regarding depression and suicide prevention, and I imagine I might be asked to do so again sometime in the future (although I’m a bit older now, so I have lost some of my “street cred” with the youth… so maybe the time of me talking to youth about it is gone).
The Church still has a ways to go, but so does society as a whole, in my opinion. But baby steps are being made, and every so often a very large (and historic) step is made. Just the other day I received an email from SPAN that the Senate and House negotiators came to agreement on the terms for a mental health parity bill.
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**Here’s an old post about when G-d broke my dad’s heart. It's long and boring and not really worth reading (for those who don't like reading long crap unless it's groovy stuff).
I don’t know if I have ever shared this story, and I’m not completely sure that I want to, but nonetheless, here it is:
One of the most difficult things for me (and my dad for that matter) was when I asked him for a priesthood blessing to be "healed" after I was released from the mental hospital from yet another failed attempt to end the torment. I had all the faith in the world that I would be healed. I didn’t just “believe,” I knew that all my dad had to do was say those magic words, and I would never hear another voice, nor ever plummet into the abyss of the dark night of the soul ever again. I knew that the more than 15 years of suffering could be ended if my dad proclaimed it through a priesthood blessing.
After being anointed with oil, my dad put his hands on my head, opened the prayer, and then paused for what seemed like an eternity. He then began the prayer again, stumbling over his words. After yet another pause, he began to sob lightly, and his voice shook and had a tremor that was so unfamiliar coming from this man who rarely (if ever) showed that form of emotion. He was a man of strength, faith, character, and certainty. To hear his voice shake, and to hear him hesitate and struggle with words was something that I had never heard this man with a Masters in English Literature ever do. It was unsettling, but I thought that perhaps he was being overcome with the “spirit” and my faith and resolve to be healed once he proclaimed the words was strengthened.
He then said the words I never expected to hear from him: "Stuart,” followed by yet another long pause and intermittent sobs, “your Father in Heaven does not want you to be healed." He than began crying again, closed the prayer, gave me a hug, and shut himself in his room for several hours. He didn't go to church for several months after that, and it was probably one of the defining moments in my life that began to feed my closet atheist.
I don’t know why G-d decides to give my cousin a brilliant brain, but the inability to express his thoughts coherently. I don’t know why He chooses to allow some people to be tormented by their own minds. I don’t know why He allows women to be raped, children to be abused, or people to starve. And I often go back and forth between the questions of “Where is G-d?” and more importantly… “Where is humanity?”
Last edited by Reflexzero on Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
Bond has written an excellent article on this issue, as a sufferer of depression, himself. Everyone should read this article. It is very well-written:
Yes, bond's essay is very insightful. It demonstrates that the stigmatization of depression is not unique to the LDS culture by any means. However, in my experience, adding the component of religious guilt on top of the already present stigma is even more harmful.
Yeah there is secular stigma "don't be a pussy, man up Bond" from my macho friends, stigma which is shame based, based on external factors. Religious stigma is shame [externally] and guilt [internally] based. And I think the inside stuff is worst, because it never stops! You can go in your room and lock the door on your parents or spouse or whatever, but you can't silence the voices in your mind saying "man up Bond, stop being a pussy!".
The Internal guilt process goes back to being the most effective [read my thoughts on Foucault, God and the Watcher for more] because it can never be blocked out. Drink till you're s*** faced and you'll still have the depressing effects in the morning. Sleep 12 hours a day and when you wake up the voices are still there. Do anything, and the self doubt and self loathing is still there.
I'll write a whole post up on this issue tonight folks. I'll post a link when I get it done I guess...
I feel you. The "voices in my head" belong to my mother's sisters, who never have anything good to say about me. My brother, who was just as affected by my parents marital choices as I was, is determined that therapy is not for him, not for his wife (sexually abused and pregnant with his child)...and he's going to let a 10-year relationship die because of lack of education on what mental illness really is.
I'm the family basket case because I was the only one who willingly got help. Court orders don't really count in my family, "they made me do it!". Too bad it was good for your ass...
I find it admirable when men can overcome the societal pressures and face their depression. I've seen far too many angry men who are hurting on the inside...
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
* A person being kind to himself and understanding his infinite worth to Heavenly Father helps him overcome depression. Marvin J. Ashton counseled those suffering from depression to “not doubt your abilities. Do not delay your worthy impressions. With God's help, you cannot fail. He will give you the courage to participate in meaningful change and purposeful living.”
But what about when your depression blocks those normally positive messages? You can read about God's love, hear about it, and still feel not worthy of it. You can say all the affirmations you want for a good long while, but if the depression has a hold on you, it's going to be very difficult to pull yourself up out of it alone. Depressed individuals need a support system, a good, strong one. And often those who are depressed are too ashamed to ask for what they need and deserve.
* A Mormon doctrine called the Word of Wisdom can help fight depression. This health code involves eating a healthy diet (little meat, whole grains, many fruits and vegetables, no coffee or tea) but no harmful or addictive substances like illegal drugs, tobacco, and alcohol (a known depressant). In addition, it encourages physical exercise and maintaining a healthy weight, which contribute to emotional health and stability. Using the advice of a physician, including taking recommended medication, either on a temporary or on-going basis, may be necessary to handle depression.
I drink very little caffeine now that I'm enceinte, and before this I drank maybe once every three months. I have never smoked, and I prefer my freedom so "illegal" is out of the question. This has been this way for a long time...but I still struggle. Sure, eating right helps, but it is not a cure.
LOL, what do you do when your depression steals your apetite? In my teens I could have been on one of those Feed the Children commercials, I was so thin...but I had no desire to eat.
* Mormons have discovered that prayer and service lift their spirits and increase their self-esteem and feeling of power or control. Taking the focus off of themselves also helps put their problems in perspective and makes them feel they are not singled out for challenges. A day of service makes them feel useful and significant to others. “At the moment of depression, if you will follow a simple program, you will get out of it. Get on your knees and get the help of God, then get up and go find somebody who needs something you can help them with. Then it will be a good day.”
So they're implying that depressed people are self-centered. There is a man who is homeless who panhandles out on a busy intersection most afternoons. I pass him on the way to get my fiancee. I always give him a couple of dollars if I have it, I'll give him my last if I have it. I've always been that way. Doing so may make me feel good, but if I'm in the midst of depression, my actions are more out of pity for someone whose worse off than me than it is to wipe away my feelings of sadness. Sure, it's good and cool to help others, but I've hardly ever felt like my depression lifted when I did so. I just did it, it's what's in me. Does that mean I lack somehow?
* Understanding Satan's role may help a depressed person overcome the evil influence. “Satan wants us to feel unequal to our worldly tasks. If we turn to God, He will lead us through our darkest hours.” Ashton counsels to not “let your discouragement make Satan rejoice.” Mormons believe that Satan and his followers delight in the unhappiness that they heap on the heads of Christ's disciples, and so they do not want to cooperate with nor reward the adversary.
Satan has played a lesser role in my struggle than human beings have...
* Reading about people in the scriptures who have handled adversity well helps lift the spirits of many Mormons. Lorenzo Snow, a Mormon prophet, said “If the Apostle Peter had become discouraged at his manifest failure to maintain the position that he had taken to stand by the Savior under all circumstances, he would have lost all; whereas, by repenting and persevering, he lost nothing but gained all. . . . “ Paul is another great example of not yielding to discouragement because he suffered all manner of physical and other ills yet refused to give into the temptation to feel sorry for himself. Of course, Christ is the best example of all as He constantly reminds men of the hope they have in Him.
This is so rudimentary, and in some senses insulting. "Just do this, and it'll all go away...." How is clinical depression so simple? Do they think that folks haven't tried things like this?
* Repenting of sinful behavior will help overcome depression. Sin, Mormons believe, is destructive to not only others but to self. No one can engage in wrongful behavior without hurting himself, often manifested in depression.
It's all well and good to repent when you have hurt others. It feels good, but again this doesn't attack the root of the problem...unless you're dealing with someone who has allowed their sense of guilt to be warped...and even then there's a bigger underlying issue.
* Fasting, doing without food and water for a limited period of time, can increase the power of a person's petitions for relief from negative feelings.
You can also fall out from lack of nourishment, and the stress that's upon your body from the emotional state. Which is it going to be, eat healthily or not at all?
* Mormons often seek the strengthening and nurturing ordinances within the temple to help them fight depression.
The Celestial room of the temple is a peaceful place, it was actually the first place in which I experienced a lack of trauma/drama...but I doubt it would be good for someone already struggling emotionally, especially if it's their first time going, or they're stuck in the, "go until you're used to it/comfortable with it" mentality...it could actually be more damaging.
* Mormons also request priesthood blessings to help them fight depression. These blessings can give comfort, guidance, cast out the influence of Lucifer, and even cure.
Let's not get into blessings that never happened....catch 22, if you don't see it actualized, it's because you didn't have enough faith...and that's another reason to be depressed.
* Depressed members can get counseling services by going to ldsfamilyservices.org to find the nearest LDS Family Services office near them. They're located throughout the United States, as well as in Canada, England, Australia, New Zealand, and Japan. Mexico also has a new office that is gradually setting up various services. These offices provide out-patient services for a fee (in the U.S., approximately $60-70 a session of 50 minutes). Occasionally members who cannot afford fees may be fortunate enough to have them waived if qualified professional counselors who are members of their stake will counsel them privately. Members should also seek out depression support groups.
[/b]Your individual health plan or county's mental health services will serve you far better. Especially if all you're being told is what's above...[/b]
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
liz3564 wrote:I have a question for Bob, Jason, Dr, Peterson, and any others here who have served either as a Bishop, or in the Bishopric. How do you go about counseling someone who comes to you with a clearly clinical depression? Do you encourage them to go for professional help, and incorporate your spiritual counseling along with their professional counseling? (I'm hoping the answer to this is yes).
There is a well-known California Supreme Court decision in favor of a mega-Evangelical Church in southern California. It runs an anti-Mormon ministry. Rex Lee argued the case to the Supreme Court.
A member of the church came in for pastoral counseling for depression. The member, as a result of the counseling session which involved a heavy dose of Christianity, committed suicide. The family sued for clergy malpractice, arguing that the member should have been referred to a professional. The Church won. Basically, the Supreme Court acknowledged that pastoral counseling is a part of religion, every religion, and a pastor can't be held responsible for bad advice.
This thread seems to suggest that Mormons have some sort of special lock on pastoral care. They don't. Virtually every Christian congregation has a pastor or pastoral assistants who counsel people for marital issues, depression, sexual abuse and other things. The mega churches have full time pastoral counselors.
Often, the only place people think they can go is their pastor. Christian pastors and priests have been on the front line for dealing with mental health issues for 2000 years. Go ahead and poke fun and mock.
Bob wrote:This thread seems to suggest that Mormons have some sort of special lock on pastoral care.
By whom?
Bob wrote: They don't. Virtually every Christian congregation has a pastor or pastoral assistants who counsel people for marital issues, depression, sexual abuse and other things. The mega churches have full time pastoral counselors.
Often, the only place people think they can go is their pastor. Christian pastors and priests have been on the front line for dealing with mental health issues for 2000 years.
Agreed.
Bob wrote: Go ahead and poke fun and mock.
I wasn't mocking or poking fun. I asked you a serious question, which you still have not answered. You immediately went on the defensive, and gave me that interesting anecdote about a case won in the California Supreme Court about someone who committed suicide, and was trying to blame the Church.
Did you really think I was trying to set you up in some way by asking the question, Bob? I'm a member of the Church, too.
Yes, clergy from various churches has been counseling people for thousands of years on these issues. I'm not disputing that. I would hope, however, with what we do know now, in regards to mental illness and depression, that we would take advantage of the science that, for whatever reason, God has seen fit to allow us to utilize, and combine the spiritual with the medical. This is no different than giving someone a blessing before they go in for surgery. You're not going to counsel that person not to have necessary surgery. That would be ridiculous. You're going to continue to counsel that person from a spiritual standpoint, and allow the doctors to also help that person with their expertise.
So, Bob, I'll ask you again. Based upon what we know now regarding tools at our disposal to fight depression and mental illness, would you, as a bishop, encourage your congregant to receive professional help in addition to continuing to guide them from a spiritual standpoint? And, if your answer is yes, (which I sincerely hope it is), what are some ways you might communicate to this person that seeking professional medical help is not a sign of weakness, but, really, a sign of strength?
A member of the church came in for pastoral counseling for depression. The member, as a result of the counseling session which involved a heavy dose of Christianity, committed suicide. The family sued for clergy malpractice, arguing that the member should have been referred to a professional. The Church won. Basically, the Supreme Court acknowledged that pastoral counseling is a part of religion, every religion, and a pastor can't be held responsible for bad advice.
This thread seems to suggest that Mormons have some sort of special lock on pastoral care. They don't. Virtually every Christian congregation has a pastor or pastoral assistants who counsel people for marital issues, depression, sexual abuse and other things. The mega churches have full time pastoral counselors.
Often, the only place people think they can go is their pastor. Christian pastors and priests have been on the front line for dealing with mental health issues for 2000 years. Go ahead and poke fun and mock.
Virtually every pastor of a mainstream Christian church of which I know is a licensed professional counselor as well as a pastor. In grad school many of my fellow students were working toward being licensed to counsel members so they could become a pastor; they could not counsel members unless they were a licensed professional therapist.
To suggest that most mainstream Christian clergy are similar to Bishops in the LDS church is not an accurate comparison; not at all.
Christian pastors and priests have been on the front line for dealing with mental health issues for 2000 years.
Yeah, and believers thought autism and schizophrenia were the result of Satanic possession. So, yeah, they go to get the devil cast off. Great supporting evidence counselor! ;-)
If in the above case, the pastor was NOT a trained professional the case supports the fact that people should not pretend to be therapists, and depression requires professional help.
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
beastie wrote: Depression often entails feelings of guilt over being depressed, and I believe LDS teachings exacerbate that tendency. I've been cleaning out my basement this summer, and happened upon one of my missionary journals from the MTC. Therein, I found recorded, very succinctly, a summary of what I had been taught as a Mormon regarding depression:
The mighty change of heart is when you really realize who you are and the joy of knowing what you can become. If you're depressed, you're deceiving yourself somehow, covering a sin.
When I open my missionary journal it's filled with mantra's. I would bear my "testimony" frequently, remind myself that this month was the month we'd baptise, chastise myself for shortcomings and even ask myself and God why I was failing in my goals.
Guilt and the numbers were the driver, not love. Even though I made the decision on my own to serve a mission because I wanted to share love and peace to my brothers and sisters. I loved people I hadn't even met. I've always believed that people are basically good. I didn't get a chance to feel good about my righteous intent.
I regularly expressed inadequacy to the baptising challenge and then would step in and encourage myself not to give up.
My journal is embarrassing to me. I won't burn it though. I'll keep it as a reminder of how the service negatively influenced the rest of my life and those around me.