Prophets, Revelation, and Extreme Future

[_Jason Bourne]

Hi Jason,

OK, I think I have not been clear.

How about I give an example.

Let's take the WoW and our physical health.

The church teaches, no drinking tea or coffee (hot drinks), no smoking or drugs. This has been around for a very long time. (I don't want to get into a debate about the specifics of the WoW but lets just go with it for a sec).

There is no one on the planet who needs a prophet to let them know smoking is bad for your health. (The WoW is almost an exact copy of an article written before the D&C was channeled but this is another point). :-) The WoW supposedly addressed the needs of the time in which it was written but in my opinion, there are new needs, new challenges, new difficulties ahead... but the prophets are stuck in "revelation" pertinent to a time in the past.

Now... if Christ wanted to help the members of the church today, or if the church wanted to address current issues regarding health, maybe there could be some information (revelation) with say, a few of the major killers, like HIV/AIDS, stress, or obesity.

Another example may be education. I don't think there are any experts in the world who wouldn't say it is vital to the next generation that they receive a good education, and that we fix the current educational system in the US, yet Utah is about at the bottom of the list when it comes to schools.

in my opinion, this would be a crucial topic for the younger generations and for the future of not only our country but the world. It seems odd to me that one of the most important of all issues we are facing (and of course I think this is true all over the planet), isn't even whispered yet seriously unimportant issues are addressed as if they were vital to salvation.

While I think we are facing an energy crisis, changes in global temperature, massive extinctions, a new world of tech etc. etc., maybe you are right, maybe the prophets don't say anything because they do not believe these are issues. I suppose you are right on this point. (Let's check back in another ten years OK)?

I also think it is probably true that the leaders of the LDS church think the future of the current world is non-existent therefore there is nothing to prepare for.

Anyway.... you are right that I have an idea of what I think a Good God (smile), could do to help out humankind, and of course God could do whatever God wants.

:-)

~td~

I understand what you are saying. And personally I would love to see some of these issues discussed even if it is not prophetic direction.

But I think LDS leaders see their role more as messengers of salvation in the eternal sense. That really is where your disconnect is.

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason, I think you have cruxed the different expectations of the prophet as I've UL'd in your post above... Can't speak for TD. But I don't think "salvation" et al is germane to the challenges of today, any more than they were to the challenges facing humanity since the beginning of time.

I understand that you don't, TD does not think the salvation issues are all that critical. You may be correct. I am simply pointing out that LDS prophets view themselves in the traditional sense.

Likewise, "...God's plans for the world's end." Personally, IMSCO, IF God was/is planning anything, I think it would be the the continuance of discovery of truths that will expand the consciousness & conscience of humanity. Then the social/humanitarian Gospel Jesus taught would base the way we humans deal with each other.

We all have opinions. Maybe someday we will know who has the correct ones. I find nothing wrong with your wish list nor TDs. But prophets may really be doing what God wants. This thread was started with the intent of criticizing prophets for not letting us know about things TD thinks they should. She is in her right to be disappointed and even reject the prophets due to their (apparent) failure to be what she would like to see. Yet they still may be doing God's will.

When any LDS Prophet of today, steps outside of the Mormon parameters into the world with that message--as they did re Prop 8--then I think you might see a return of some, and an interest from others.

The LDS prophets believed the prop 8 issues were most likely a key prophetic issue to deal with.

That's what I imagine a True Prophet doing. As did Prophets of the Old Testament. They stood against the greed and poverty of their time. Maybe antiestablisment types???

One could argue the LDS Church is going against the accepted norm with prop 8 and their stand.

Anyway Jas, I think you have put your finger on it. "Salvation"--to folks who don't believe in a God that set up humanity from a "fall" to take another "fall"--just doesn't make sense...
Respectfully, Roger

Yes I understand.

[_Jason Bourne]

Here is a list of disappointments that come to mind:

* The lack of a uniform policy to protect children from sexual predators until just a few years ago. The church has been one of the last in the civilized world to understand and recognize this incurable disease for what it is.

Oh hardly. I agree that a policy coming along was late. But they were well aware of the issue about as long as the rest of society was.

* The destructive effects of violent shooter games on the rising generation

Say what!! You ever listen to them preaching against violence in entertainment for like ever!!!

* How to actually overcome the addictions of pornography, drug dependency etc. The Mormon church has no effective programs.

The Church now has a very fine 12 step addiction recovery program based on AA's 12 step plan. It is quite a wonderful program.

* Marriage and Family counseling through the church's welfare agency remains a joke.

Oh whatever. How much experience do you have with this?

* The disproportionate allocation of funds to build spacious buildings & shrines rather than address the current world problems of the living needy.

Critics of this issue leave out fast offering contributions and assistance which based on the number of wards in the world and a conservative estimate of the assistance and average ward gives out could be about 500 million a year.

[_Jason Bourne]

Inc,

Good list.

I agree with your list.

Actually but for the sexual predator issue it was a pretty poor list and I have noted why.

One other point... the LDS church still today maintains the practice of allowing (demanding) grown men discuss sexual issues with young girls and boys alone and behind closed doors. This is utterly disgusting and should be against the law.

How this can go on in today's world astounds me.

The church speaks out against abuse (child and domestic violence) but does nothing to eliminate it.

Interviews with a bishop can be a very positive experience depending in the bishop which is a risk I agree. But keep in mind parent KNOW what is going to be discussed. If the parent is ok with it then I think your outrage is a bit much.

[_truth dancer]

Jason,

There are lots of things parent do that are harmful to children.

Lots of sexual abuse... some parents need a wake up call to know what is and is not appropriate and some parents need help to know how to protect their children.

Putting young girls and boys in a situation where they must discuss and disclose sexual matters with a grown neighbor man is inappropriate no matter how you look at it.

I do not care how wonderful the bishop is, it should never happen under any conditions.

In truth, I think it is sick that single adult women must discuss their sex lives with a neighbor and even worse, I think it is a violation of a marriage to require women to discuss their sexual experiences and private relationships with a neighbor man. The whole thing is sick. Sorry it just is.

(We all know there are Bishops who get off hearing the details of what is going on in the private lives of girls and women in their ward or neighborhood).

It truly disgusts me that this occurs in a church.

~td~

[_Chap]

But keep in mind parent KNOW what is going to be discussed. If the parent is ok with it then I think your outrage is a bit much.

If a person thinks it improper for a teenage boy or girl to be questioned alone, repeatedly and perhaps in detail about sexual matters by an untrained older man, I am not sure that one is obliged to suppress one's sense of concern (perhaps even of outrage) because the young person's parents do not appear to mind this happening.

This is after all a matter of what happens to a young human being; it is not a question of what someone does with mere property, such as their TV, or their dog (though in the latter case certain kinds of treatment of the dog might be held to be the legitimate concern of persons who were not the dog's owner; a fortiori for a young human, surely?).

[_Inconceivable]

Jason,

I'll get back to you later on your comments about the list I posted. I have first hand experience with each of them. You don't particularly sound like you do.

Your comment, "The church has this now", flies in the face of the concept of modern revelation.

I would rather call it "revelation by consensus" - an oxymoron.

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason,

There are lots of things parent do that are harmful to children.

Lots of sexual abuse... some parents need a wake up call to know what is and is not appropriate and some parents need help to know how to protect their children.

Putting young girls and boys in a situation where they must discuss and disclose sexual matters with a grown neighbor man is inappropriate no matter how you look at it.

I do not care how wonderful the bishop is, it should never happen under any conditions.

In truth, I think it is sick that single adult women must discuss their sex lives with a neighbor and even worse, I think it is a violation of a marriage to require women to discuss their sexual experiences and private relationships with a neighbor man. The whole thing is sick. Sorry it just is.

(We all know there are Bishops who get off hearing the details of what is going on in the private lives of girls and women in their ward or neighborhood).

It truly disgusts me that this occurs in a church.

~td~

The principle of confession in Christianity is a long held tradition, and some think commandment of God.

It has pros and cons.

I know you feel strongly about this. However, a parent who knows about this and gives permission for it, is not abusive no matter what you think.

And yes, there are those in leadership who, for whatever reason, ask for more detail then is ever needed in a normal Christian confessional.

[_Jason Bourne]

I'll get back to you later on your comments about the list I posted.

Feel free.

I have first hand experience with each of them. You don't particularly sound like you do.

Actually I am quite familiar with every one of the things that you brought up.

Your comment, "The church has this now", flies in the face of the concept of modern revelation.

I am not to worried about it.

I would rather call it "revelation by consensus" - an oxymoron.

Okie dokie.

[_Inconceivable]

I'll get back to you later on your comments about the list I posted.

Feel free.

I have first hand experience with each of them. You don't particularly sound like you do.

Actually I am quite familiar with every one of the things that you brought up.

Your comment, "The church has this now", flies in the face of the concept of modern revelation.

I am not to worried about it.

I would rather call it "revelation by consensus" - an oxymoron.

Okie dokie.

Jason,
Sounds like you're just a little edgy over something. You know what the problems are. They've been repeated ad-nauseum here. I'll just let it go unless you really want to spar.